1Password 8 - Non-native feel
Comments
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Like how hard is it in Electron to be like ifMacOS -> Left for this X? It seems less of a matter that 1Password can't and more an issue that they refuse to out of principal. We will adapt to their design rather than them adapting to the OS design, darn it!
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Our design team is going to take a holistic look at our use of modals vs windows and see if there are areas where we've used one but the other makes more sense. As far as the design of the modals go, we're following the conventions established by Apple. I don't think it would necessarily be difficult to change it, but I'm also not sure there is agreement that we should go against what Apple does in order to have a more Apple feel. 🙃 We'll see. Not much is written in stone.
Ben
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That Home app is majorly inconsistent in itself - some of the modals are iOS style with Cancel and Confirm or similar actions at the top of the window, one specific modal uses the X icon. I'd say it's not a good example of Apple design language. Other Apple Catalyst apps are similarly inconsistent, even within the same app. The home app uses mostly this style:
More traditional desktop apps seem to either use a very minimal preferences modal, or a full traditional preferences window.
An example of a very minimalist Apple preferences modal:
I don't think this is great for more than a few checkboxes though.
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You're absolutely right that modals are less common on macOS, and where they do exist, the UI isn't entirely consistent. As I say, our design folks are going to take another pass through the app to evaluate where we're using modals, and to see which of those makes sense and which we might consider making a window.
Thanks for the continued feedback on this.
Ben
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I think Reeder for macOS has a rather nice preferences window with a custom style similar to 1Password, but the "X" on the left side of the title bar:
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One other item for consideration for tweaking — the "New Item" menu. When the app window is smaller, the New Item menu gets cut off and requires scrolling, which isn't immediately apparent (i..e. someone might think they're viewing the entire list, and not know they can scroll to see more options). In previous versions, I believe the New Item menu could extend past the main app window. This also has the effect of making the app feel like a web view.
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@cyberskier I completely agree about the menus. They should extend past the application window. I have heard that it's not possible to do with Electron, but not sure. If so it's yet another reason to abandon the idea of using Electron and move to SwiftUI like a proper Mac app.
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Remember tht AgileBits started by developing in both SwitUI and Electron, but dropped SwiftUI. I got the impression that this was because SwiftUI was not mature enough to work as wanted, but I could easily be wrong about that.
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SwiftUI isn’t the only other UI framework, AppKit still lives on and is fully supported
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@cyberskier That's a limitation of Electron. As 1P8 is now a webpage, menus like that cannot extend past the window's borders.
For myself, I've uninstalled 1P8 and will stick with 7 once the "update" comes out. While I actually can finally see some of the improvements version 8 brings, they aren't enough to counter the obvious downgrades.
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@semaja2 The trouble with using AppKit, is that they could have started that way, but for good reasons decided not to. They could go back to the beginning and create an AppKit version. But that would take a long time and they would be criticised for not producing a Mac 1PW8 version when Linux and Windows versions existed; such criticism has already been made by quite a few people. I think the only choice for AgileBits is to continue work on the Electron version as primary. I hope they are also considering producing an AppKit version as well (or maybe still a SwiftUI version), but I would not expect them to say if they are doing that until a version was close to production.
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@danco at this stage if they just commit to investigating and building a non-electron version within the next 12-24months, they might actually be able to save a large portion of the customer base from leaving (eg. I've cancelled my renewal, happy to pick it back up if they commit to native in the next 12-24 months)
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Oh, I agree with you. But I think that AgileBits strongly dislike making commitments of that kind. I am hoping that behind the scenes they are investigating this option, but very much doubt if they will tell us so unless such a version is at least in alpha, maybe not until a beta.
One of their problems seems to be that SwiftUI is not mature enough, while AppKit is old enough that it might go away in the version after Monterey. At least Electron should work for a long time.
I'm not myself planning to try 1PW8 until actual release, but I do get the impression that some of the current criticism forgets that the current version isn't even a beta yet, it works on the whole but is ugly and has many rough edges.
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There is zero chance that AppKit goes away in macOS 13.
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Interesting decision and mix of decisions here. You're going to use SwiftUI on iOS? Excellent. You're going to use Electron on Mac? Well, now it doesn't matter what you've done with your iOS version now because they are used together, and Electron on Mac is slower, larger, and generally less reliable.
I starting using 1Password because of its support for the Apple ecosystem. Not iOS, all of it. So, you're going an interesting thing. You're going to make your Apple customers to check other products, just to see. You may be lucky, some will stay, but you are really going to annoy some of your most loyal customers.
As for being "committed to creating top tier user experiences on all of (your) platforms" well, that's nonsense isn't it? On macOS, it's not top tier any more is it?
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Thanks for the continued feedback, folks. :)
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@Lars & @Ben : But I assume you will not stop working on v8 as it is now?
You just say "Thanks for the continued feedbacks, folks"? You know, you never answer(ed) to general critics about v8. Just referring to an longer post about v8, thats all. And saying that all at AgileBits loves v8 and it will be so great. You just ignore it ... Comments with general critics mostly do not popup at the top of this forum ...Still I feel hurt because I am a user of 1Pwd for many, many years - and the way how you (do not) react to general critics about v8. I accepted to do the same (in the near future) as AgileBits does - kicking 1Pwd v7 to the trash.
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FYI, I've upgraded to a 1Password account (from an iCloud synced vault that I've had all these years). While I don't really agree with an infinite subscription payment, I do think the 1Password folks deserve some more money for a new major update and for all the work they have done. Second, I took a look here to see what people are saying about the v8 beta. My observation is that if we are down to whether the X is on the right or left of the modal window, there isn't that much that we are complaining about. Also the 1P staff seem to like it and there is a lot of promise of improvements, including listening to the users. So I think I will start testing the v8 beta and see how I like it. Thanks for the great work, support and being open to discuss issues with customers.
-Mark Knopper0 -
Thanks for your input Mark, and for your willingness to give it a try. :+1:
Ben
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@mirv : Oh, is it down to whetever the X ...? Sure?
Please have a look at all the posts in this section "Early Access" - it is FULL of critics, bugs, hints ....
Almost all general critics does not pop up anymore, sticks somewhere on pages 3, 4, 5 (because AgileBits thinks it is not important anymore and does not want to have shown it on page 1)0 -
@claus In my Opinion the Early Access Forum is full of good Requests, Bug Notifications and good Feedback.
This Thread keeps regularly popping up on Page 1.If you don't See "general critics" then the reason is that a lot of People have created new Forum Threads. AgileBits ist not hiding these Threads.
Please keep Up the good Work Agile Bits! V8 has still a Long Road ahead but I really Like it already.0 -
@ejunkie : Yes, this one pops up - lucky. But others stay somewhere on page 4, 5, .... - no matter if someone adds a comment (it was like this, also others critiqued that matter). For me it is hiding critics.
You should also read also the posts from the beginning of "Early Access". Lots, lots negative feedback, lots of (former) users gave up to share their opinion. Many, like me, will use v7 as long as possible and then switching to a different app. And not only there, also in other Mac forums, where users talk about the new v8, the general critics (GUI, no local vaults, no 1Pwd Mini, ...) is very strong.
You know, AgileBits had a great app 1 Passwort version 7, with a great GUI, native Apple. They threw it to the trash.
And now with v8 we, the users, have to tell AgileBits what is not working well, what to make better (this is what you call "good requests", "good feedback"). These are in so many cases basic requests, basic mistakes AgileBits made in the GUI of v8. They know how to make it better because they have (oh, sorry, had) v7.
If I would develop such an GUI, my boss would have fired me already!0 -
I am one of those 1PW veterans who doesn't mind 1PW 8. I don't like the idea of paying a subscription and Agile's offer was generous although I was very disappointed they didn't offer the same for family plans. Felt like a Mike Tyson punch to the gut :(
What I am really hoping for with electron is that 1PW's feature set and bug fixes will accelerate exponentially since the idea is (unless am I mistaken @Ben) that the codebase is shared. New features, fixes, etc can be done cross platform much quicker than before. The dark mode on windows is beautiful although I'm hoping they clean it up a bit).
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@mia - you're entirely correct; most of what we refer to as the Core codebase will indeed be able to be receive changes simultaneously across all platforms with little or no extra effort, allowing us to not only iterate faster, but as a result, have more developer and designer cycles available to move on to other things instead of expending them having to try to match functionality across multiple platforms. The result is the ability to deliver things like Masked email (debuted Sept. 28) and “Psst” (secure sharing with anyone; debuted earlier this month) on a much faster schedule. And to reply to user's feature requests more quickly as well! ;)
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@Lars - I get that it helps free up time for new features quicker, but I'd rather have native high quality apps than new features. 1Password already does everything I need from a password manager. Anything else is just a bonus. However, with the new Electron approach I no longer like the Mac application and will stay with version 7. If version 9 is a native application I'm staying with 1Password, otherwise I probably won't. Same goes if there is a security issue discovered in version 7 that won't be patched in favor of version 8. That's how much I dislike the Electron experience.
I'll give it to you that you have one of the better Electron implementations, but there are still issues that can't be solved with electron, like it feeling like a web app, menus not being able to extend past the application window, and the general feel with things such as scrolling behavior. I don't think I have seen any Electron app with elastic scrolling.
I have chosen to use Macs for many reasons but with a major one being the premium application experience both from Apple and third parties. The fact that all applications have a similar and familiar look and feel that just fits in, and that developers of small and large applications alike are paying attention to this. I'm sad to see more and more applications moving to Electron and similar solutions, but my way to deal with that is to find alternatives by developers who care about the Mac experience enough to use the native UI options available.
Also, as far as I'm aware the iOS application still uses AppKit so there still isn't one truly cross platform solution. I know SwiftUI has its limitations still, but I'd much rather see a Catalyst app than Electron.
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@user12345 - I can't argue with any of the points you made, because they're matters of preference and prioritization, and you've clearly stated yours. That means they're valid by definition. I don't know that I think they're all that widely-shared, but we are always willing to listen to thoughtful feedback, and I'm happy to pass yours along.
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@Lars - I am a customer like you. I use the PC, Mac, Browser, & iPhone versions of 1PW and have used it since v3. I am extremely merciless and brutal when it comes to 1PW's development as poor @Ben and others on the support team will attest. It's because I love this software very much that I communicate with such passion. With that said, I've heard the negative comments about Electron and the arguments against it just doesn't seem that compelling to me. The app runs fast.... Very fast.
I get that it helps free up time for new features quicker, but I'd rather have native high quality apps than new features. 1Password already does everything I need from a password manager. Anything else is just a bonus. However, with the new Electron approach I no longer like the Mac application and will stay with version 7. If version 9 is a native application I'm staying with 1Password, otherwise I probably won't. Same goes if there is a security issue discovered in version 7 that won't be patched in favor of version 8. That's how much I dislike the Electron experience.
AgileBits needs to innovate or it dies. The new sharing feature is an example of a feature I think adds to their mission. I think the privacy.com credit card feature is useless because it requires an extra subscription and same with fastmail, especially since Apple is offering a similar service baked into iCloud+.
I'll give it to you that you have one of the better Electron implementations, but there are still issues that can't be solved with electron, like it feeling like a web app, menus not being able to extend past the application window, and the general feel with things such as scrolling behavior. I don't think I have seen any Electron app with elastic scrolling.
I haven't seen any issues with the scrolling. It's wicked fast on my PC. Is this elastic scrolling for Macs?
I have chosen to use Macs for many reasons but with a major one being the premium application experience both from Apple and third parties. The fact that all applications have a similar and familiar look and feel that just fits in, and that developers of small and large applications alike are paying attention to this. I'm sad to see more and more applications moving to Electron and similar solutions, but my way to deal with that is to find alternatives by developers who care about the Mac experience enough to use the native UI options available.
I know it's not ideal but I empathize with their position. Imagine coding for 5 different platforms. Each feature, each fix has to be applied to all these different platforms. I understand their desire for a more efficient workflow.
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@mia - you're entirely correct; most of what we refer to as the Core codebase will indeed be able to be receive changes simultaneously across all platforms with little or no extra effort, allowing us to not only iterate faster, but as a result, have more developer and designer cycles available to move on to other things instead of expending them having to try to match functionality across multiple platforms. The result is the ability to deliver things like Masked email (debuted Sept. 28) and “Psst” (secure sharing with anyone; debuted earlier this month) on a much faster schedule. And to reply to user's feature requests more quickly as well! ;)
@Lars I understand. I probably would've gone the same route. The Psst sharing is wonderful, but the Masked email is shrug since Apple already integrated this in iCloud+ and fastmail costs more money. I would recommend AgileBits bake more of the stuff into the app or service itself instead of relying on an external party for future requests.
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