DEFAULT Vault on iOS

Cobram

Hello guys

I'm a 1Password Pro user on a lot of devices during many years
I love your software and hate it at the same time. It was very good until version 3 and then it turned into a mess. Maybe I'm alone but that's my opinion. Anyway, I don't have a choice but to use 1Password 5 (and I bought it for all my devices and my family). So I'm a long-term paying customer (because I still love and believe in your product).

That was the emotional part of my question. Now goes the functional part.

Finally in version 5 you have vaults (sorry, I'm being a little bit emotional again, can't stand it). So I tried to set it up the way I have a Mobile vault that is shared across my devices and synced using combined Wi-Fi/Folder sync solution. Now every time I start the software on the iPhone and iPad it always defaults me to the Primary vault. Which is totally empty in my case because I just don't want to sync it. But I want to sync the Mobile vault and obviously I named it "Mobile" because I sync it across mobile devices. So I have a Mobile vault on iPhone with all the passwords, but I can't see them! Everytime I run the application I have to go to Settings and change the vault from Primary to Mobile.

Is there a way to make it stick?

Thank you,
your long-term loyal customer.

Cobram

And I experience the exact same problem with Safari extension - it always defaults to the Primary vault, which is empty. I don't want to sync Primary vault.

littlebobbytables

Hi @Cobram,

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Unfortunately there currently isn't a way to select a default vault that isn't your primary. We've had requests before for other aspects relating to vaults but I think this is the first request we've had about selecting a default vault on opening, certainly the first request I've come across.

So can you help me out a bit please. I'd like to better understand what vaults you have and where you want them to sync.

The reason I ask is I'm wondering why you have an empty Primary vault that you don't use. You could have a very good reason but based on just the information we have at hand I wonder why we don't make your Mobile vault your Primary one. That's why I'm curious as to how you have things set up and why.

Now as to your other question regarding the Safari extension, your description makes it sound like you're referring to the desktop extension rather than the iOS Safari extension. The reason is the iOS Safari extension searches and displays matching items over all vaults and there isn't a way to select a vault there. Your query is in the iOS section though so I just thought I'd confirm before going down the wrong route with your query.

I look forward to understanding how you're using (or not) your primary vault which if you're syncing it must be empty on both your Macs and iOS devices.

Cobram

Thank you for the answer, @littlebobbytables!
So on mobile I have a vault with like 1/10th of all my passwords - for security reasons. I share Mobile folder with my family. And I use it myself only on a couple of devices.
On the main Mac I'm using all of my passwords stored in the Main vault. It's not Primary because I don't want to share it with anyone else.

Basically my config is as follows:
Primary vault (empty)
Main vault (main computer)
Mobile vault (mobile devices, family, Windows, etc)

I need to have all the passwords on the main computer and share only a couple of them with the mobile devices. If I make Primary vault a mobile - and come through all the pain renaming it to "Mobile" as it's described in your docs - I'm not sure if it's worth it. I will still need to choose the Main vault every time I start Safari extension (yes, on the desktop).

On 1Password 3 there was an EXTREMELY convenient option to just put the passwords I'd like to share to the folder that is shared across the devices. That was brilliant.1Password 5.x has SO many restrictions in the places where you never expect them! Sorry, I'm becoming emotional again here.

From your answer I think what will really solve my problem is either the ability to search across all vaults on desktop (+ renaming Primary vault to Mobile) or exclude Primary vault from sharing on Wi-Fi.
Why did you make it like this?

Thank you!

AGAlumB

@Cobram: First of all, no need to apologize! I can understand your frustration when things aren't working the way you expect them to. We'll take a passionate user over an apathetic one any day! :)

Now, I wish I had a satisfactorily succinct answer to the question, "Why did you make it like this?" The short version is that overall, for both compatibility and simplicity, the Primary (as a 'main') vault, with secondary, supplemental vaults, works best for most people. So in the initial implementation of 1Password's 'multiple vaults' feature we wanted to avoid overcomplicating -- both from technical and usability standpoints -- something that all 1Password users were used to working a specific way.

So ultimately what happens is that, as 1Password has evolved, you (and others, including folks at AgileBits!) have found new and interesting ways of interacting with the 1Password that aren't accounted for in the design. The good news is that we all have the option of using multiple vaults now where we didn't before; the bad news is that, well...this is how 1Password works for the time being, and it doesn't fit everyone's needs perfectly. :blush:

But there's more good news: we hear you (and ourselves, and the rest of our awesome customers!) loud and clear, and specifically the ability to search across multiple vaults simultaneously, change the primary vault, and sync multiple vaults via iCloud are on our radar. And while I cannot guarantee anything, given enough interest, you may well find yourself checking off some of these items on your 1Password wishlist in the future. ;)

As we move forward, we are always evaluating new features and changes to existing ones, and we just couldn't do that effectively without feedback like yours. So thank you! :chuffed:

littlebobbytables

Hi @Cobram,

I just wanted to add a little to what brenty has said.

Given the history of the different sync methods I do see how Wi-Fi Sync has evolved how it has compared to say Dropbox. When we moved from 1Password 3 to 1Password 4 it was a complete rewrite (as I understand). We moved from using the .agilekeychain as the vault storage format to using it for syncing. Now for reasons of compatibility with 1Password 3 the .agilekeychain hasn't changed and describes a single vault. When we introduced the notion of secondary vaults and the ability to share them the .agilekeychain could be used as is; it was a self-contained vault with no concept of primary or secondary status. So a secondary vault for you can be the primary sync file for somebody else.

With Wi-Fi Sync it was always built with the idea of syncing a primary vault between a Mac and iOS device not by using .agilekeychains but direct communication between the Mac and iOS device or devices. I believe they communicate more in terms of the new vault format which is an .sqlite file, where the primary Master Password unlocks all vaults. So when we introduced syncing of secondary vaults it evolved the way it did because it the primary vault is part of the key during sync. A more versatile system, where you have complete control over which vaults, say even to which devices would have been a significantly more complex task, potentially involving a significant rewrite of the function for both Mac and iOS rather than the evolution we've seen. Based on what I know I can see how Wi-Fi Sync evolved as it has.

I know we once had the idea of two levels of security (PIN and Master Password), a concept that was removed as we've improved and strengthened 1Password for iOS. I can't remember folders but my memory can be bad sometimes and you may simply have used 1Password for iOS differently to myself at the time.

My role here in AgileBits is essentially problem solver (as best I can anyway). Sadly I can't offer a solution as you're hoping exists, I can't think of a scenario that would meet all of your criteria. If possible though I do try and present alternatives which you can evaluate and accept or discard on their merits and conditions.

1. As you've suggested yourself, if you were to move your the contents of your mobile vault to your Primary it would mean you don't have to switch vaults in 1Password for iOS which takes a couple of user actions. The iOS extension already searches all vaults so it wouldn't make any difference there. The major downside I see to this is the Master Password for the vault you share with your family is now your Master Password and would allow access to your Main vault on your Mac. That might be more of an issue than the switching to the Main vault on your Mac. I switch vaults a lot and after a short time I found the ⌘1..⌘9 for vault switching in both the main window and the extension so instinctive I don't even think about it. That isn't to say it works for everybody.
2. Given you're using a combination of Wi-Fi and Folder Sync I assume you're not a fan of cloud sync methods. Just so you're aware though Dropbox would allow you to do what you wanted. You could make your Main vault your primary vault on your Mac (and not shared) whilst sharing the mobile vault with others. Using Dropbox the mobile vault would be your primary vault on your iOS devices. This one comes down to how strongly you feel about Dropbox.

Both could be unsuitable for you but I just wanted to make sure you were aware of all the possible solutions I could think of using 1Password as it stands today. I can't say how it will evolve going forward except to say we are always trying to improve.

Cobram

Thank you for the answers and the suggestions, guys, @!littlebobbytables
and @brenty!

There's still problem with Safari extension on Mac (as you agreed) and 1password on iOS still defaults to primary vault no matter what. Most of your software defaults to Primary vault and syncs it and there's no way to change that - that gives a lot of headaches where you don't expect them. The workarounds just add more and more steps. In addition renaming of the vaults is like launching a spaceship to Mars.

I asked my questions though I wasn't believing there's a solution. And as I understand it's now 2 years more until you implement a solution to choose the default vault and to exclude Primary vault from syncing. I expect 2 years because that much time passed between vault request first time appeared here and you actually implemented working vault, so it seems it's not your priority

I'm not sure guys who is your loyal paying customer, why you think that people don't work with multiple vaults, who stores valuable information on Dropbox and why it's taking so long to make a versatile software that targets different user groups (different priorities?). From my perspective 1Password is becoming less and less usable for people who really need it the way it really works - it's becoming easier to keep passwords in a protected text file than use your software nowadays. The paradox is text file is more secure (when stored locally, arguably, but there are solutions), more simple, can be synced across all platforms, more important - less clicks to get to the password and works everywhere. (Sorry again, I'm getting too frustrated and too emotional again).

Anyway thanks for your answers and support.

Megan

Hi @Cobram,

I just wanted to thank you for sharing your use case with us! As Brenty and LittleBobbyTables have mentioned, 1Password is a product under constant development, and we're always looking for ways to improve sync. I think that Wi-Fi sync has probably seen the greatest growth and change over the course of 1Password's history. We're still working on this, as well as 1Password's other features to ensure that our users have a convenient and secure experience with the app.

Of course, we love hearing about how users are storing their data in 1Password and how they're making use of the sync features. It gives us great insight into how we can improve the product for you all.

And as I understand it's now 2 years more until you implement a solution to choose the default vault and to exclude Primary vault from syncing. I expect 2 years because that much time passed between vault request first time appeared here and you actually implemented working vault, so it seems it's not your priority

I'm sorry that you're feeling so disheartened. It's important to note that multiple vaults is a huge step forward in 1Password's development. It's also a very complex one. Implementing this feature required a re-write to the entire 1Password database, and a re-thinking of sync. There's still a lot more that we want to do with multiple vaults - you're still seeing just the tip of the iceberg here. I can't promise anything in terms of a timeline (as we make it a point to never make promises on unreleased features) but I can tell you that refining multiple vaults and making them more useful and more flexible is a priority.

I'm not sure guys who is your loyal paying customer, why you think that people don't work with multiple vaults,

Again, we really appreciate you sharing your thoughts here. I'll be honest, I haven't heard of any other users with a set-up similar to yours ... which is why it's so great to hear from you. Learning about your implementation of multiple vaults will allow us to better guide future improvements.

I know I haven't given a much more definitive answer than the previous replies, but I just want to assure you that we are listening to user feedback! I'll let our developers know about how you'd like to be able to use multiple vaults.

Cobram

Thank you for the answers, @Megan @littlebobbytables and @brenty
I'm not disheartened - I'm just being realistic looking how long it takes you to implement something that your users ask you for and reading these forums over last 5 years.

Again, we really appreciate you sharing your thoughts here. I'll be honest, I haven't heard of any other users with a set-up similar to yours ...

They don't have to have the same setup as mine to face the same problems - multiple vault search, excluding Primary vaults from syncing etc.. Look there are a lot of posts you have on the forums regarding the problems with multiple vaults you're having right now. I'm definitely not alone, here are some of them (there are much more, those are just the recent ones):
Safari extension, multiple vaults search problem:
https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/comment/194689#Comment_194689
Same
https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/comment/194673#Comment_194673
Same problem on iOS (App search)
https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/comment/195039#Comment_195039
Setup which is close to mine, same problem with excluding multiple vaults:
https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/comment/194254#Comment_194254
Search all vaults:
https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/comment/194165#Comment_194165

What are they asking for and having troubles with? It's the same problems as I have that can be fixed by:
1) Implementing search across all vaults (all platforms including Browser extension)
or/and
2) Making vaults "stick" (all platforms including Browser extension)
or/and
3) Excluding Primary vault from syncing (all platforms including Browser extension)

Thank you.

AGAlumB

@Cobram: 1Password hasn't had multiple vaults for 5 years quite yet! This is actually a relatively new feature.

There are definitely some improvements to be made. When we developed support for multiple vaults, it was in response to feedback from customers. But it isn't until something like this is 'in the wild' that we get a broader range of feedback based on how people actually use the feature -- or different ways they would like to that we didn't account for initially.

We absolutely appreciate your feedback (and others!) and track feature requests, but that doesn't mean that we have the resources to rush out and rearchitect 1Password, nor is it wise to do so without careful planning and execution. Ultimately, the real 'problem' is that each of us has unique needs and expectations, and there isn't a way to please everyone or account for all contingencies. So we bide our time and wait until we've come up with a 90% solution that will work well for most folks.

In the mean time, thanks for taking the time to give us a sense of not only the features you're looking for, but how and why you would find them useful. Especially that last bit is key when it comes to striking the right balance. ;)

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
― Henry Ford

Cobram

Thank you for the answer, @brenty

Now my expectation for really 100% working and convenient vaults is 3 years from now (I'll be back here to check this thread in April 2018). I'm not sad or disappointed or disheartened. I'm just extrapolating looking at statistics of requests here.
About Henry Ford - I agree that people need a car. But there should be 4 doors not 1 right? So everybody could get in.

Thanks again for your time and for listening to users.

AGAlumB

About Henry Ford - I agree that people need a car. But there should be 4 doors not 1 right? So everybody could get in.

@Cobram: Touché. :)

But I have to point out it's a bit different, since carriages were already around with multiple doors, they just had to be pulled (thus, the 'horseless carriage'). In the case of vaults, those were around too, but they were designed to go solo. Some folks sort of swapped them in and out, but this was unwieldy, as 1Password wasn't designed with this particular use case in mind.

So that's where we decided to implement multiple vaults in the app itself. But again, while we had a specific (most common) use case in mind based on years of feedback, how people use them in practice varies greatly. So the next step is to take all of that into account as we develop 1Password going forward.

Thanks again for your time and for listening to users.

I'm hesitant to say "you're welcome", because we're here to take the time to listen, though we can't really know how our efforts will be received (even when they are based on customer feedback) until we unleash them. But by doing so we can come close, and then we can listen some more. It's with your help that we keep moving in the right direction. So instead I will say, thank you. :)