Cannot add new items in 1Password 6 [Local vaults are not fully supported yet]

2»

Comments

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    Thank you for the fast reply @brenty what was ment under "the Pro features in 1Password 6 for iOS on another device" what other device?

    @karimm: Ah, thanks for clarifying! For example, I don't even have the device I used to purchase 1Password for iOS any more, but since App Store purchases are tied to my Apple ID I can use it on my current iPhone and iPad without having to pay again. :)

    From time to time I need to move items from one walet to another. (this is the only reason why I need 1P 6 on my PC) For that I have to use Mac, with licenced 1P 6, and it works fine without ANY limitations. Why do you use different rules for Mac and PC users? As far as I remember, 1P v4 licence for Mac and PC was at the same price.

    The "rules" are always the same: you're entitled to use the app(s) you purchased for as long as you have the equipment to run it. Your license never expires, but does not entitle you to all of the work we do in perpetuity, only what you paid for. As Mike mentioned, 1Password 4 supports local vaults fully, so that's what we recommend in that case. We're not working on local vault support for 1Password 6 currently, as we have a lot of work there and in 1Password 4 for on the browser side, but it's something we'd like to revisit once we finish the work we're doing now.

  • AdieB
    AdieB
    Community Member

    Just to echo @sebrk comments, I have paid for licenses on MacOS, iOS, Android and Windows which is an awful lot of money on licenses.
    The windows v4 app is laggy and ill performing but I put up with it because the hope of v6 was lingering.
    Now you seem to suggest that local vaults won't be supported in v6 and forcing users to host data in the cloud (somebody else's computer) and pay a subscription.

    Can we get a definitive answer on whether or not local vaults will be supported in windows v6 at all.

    Thanks.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @AdieB: No. I don't have a definitive answer. I don't know the future.

    You don't want to be forced to store your encrypted data in "the cloud" and you aren't. You have a choice and can continue using what you paid for. No one is going to take that away from you, and we're working on an update that will allow 1Password 4 to work with upcoming browser changes as well.

  • sebrk
    sebrk
    Community Member

    @AdieB @brently all answers on this matter keeps reinforcing my feeling that Agilebits have their mind set on this cloud subscription thing. From purely an finacial standpoint that makes sense: you lock your customers into your service and make them pay again and again. From an ethical and moral perspecpective I find it absolutely abysmal. And from a technical standpoint there is no reason to believe it would be such a huge undertaking to make version 6 on Windows support local vaults. After all it is just a metter of hosting, the underlying technology is the same. From that I gather, you will probably never honor Mikes answer and have it working in version 6 for Win. The ecosystem will keep being this fragmented with Windows lacking a modern version in order to make your customers pay more. I guess this is the final nail in the coffin for me. I can understand implementations taking time and whatnot but this is clearly just an unfair and customer unfriendly strategy from Agilebits.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @sebrk: I really can't discuss the future, because I don't have any specific insight to what work we'll be doing then. Whatever we have planned today could change if there's an important security issue we need to get in front of, or major bugs that need fixing.

    But I do think it's unfair to expect to pay once and get new versions indefinitely. You probably wouldn't be okay with getting paid only once for work with ongoing maintenance. Most 1Password users expect us to continue updating 1Password with new features and improvements continually anyway; and since we frankly expect the same of ourselves, I don't see a good reason that we shouldn't be paid for this work.

    There was a great article a while back:

    WannaCry About Business Models (Stratechery)

    It's a fascinating read, really taking a look at the big picture, but I was surprised by where it went:

    "The truth is that software — and thus security — is never finished; it makes no sense, then, that payment is a one-time event." — Ben Thompson, Stratechery

    The most interesting thing to me though (and that's saying a lot — it's an increibly well-thought-out article) is the mention of hardware. At first, it seems obvious that hardware should also be a one-time, upfront payment, as it's a physical thing: the iPhone 7 won't get a new screen when Apple introduces the iPhone 8.

    But at the same time, the hardware is tied to the software, which receives security fixes and other improvements over time, but eventually the hardware will no longer be able to update to the latest OS and run the newest apps. And just think of all the Android devices that are stuck on an old, insecure OS version. That seems inevitable, and I still have a hard time really accepting this, but the cell carriers actually help in a way by offering incentives to upgrade to a new phone every years or two, which at the very least nets something less-outdated. And Apple has already started their program where you pay them directly every month and always get the latest iPhone. So while I've still been paying full price out of pocket so I can own mine, it's really only a matter of time. I really like being able to resell or give away my old devices, but at a certain point I'm doing more harm than good by giving someone a phone that won't be able to receive patches or run current apps for long.

    Ultimately, to paraphrase Thompson, we're incentivised to keep making 1Password.com and the apps better to keep customers, and our customers always have the most recent version. But again, if that doesn't appeal to you, you can continue using the software you've already paid for. No one hasten anything away from you. :)

  • sebrk
    sebrk
    Community Member
    edited July 2017

    @brenty I'm a develop my self and I have absolutely no issue in paying for up-to-date software. In fact, I'm more than willing to put in more in future updates. However I paid (twice) for 1Password 6. I expected to get version 6 regardless of platform. And more importantly I specifically wanted a system where I don't rely on cloud solutions and/or a subscription model. I want to pay for version 6. Get all updates for that version. Be able to use it on all platforms and host everything myself. When version 7+ arrives I'm glad to pay another one time fee if I would feel upgrading is really necessary. So you are keeping people using Windows on an old, laggy and visually (+ UX) ugly version and just happen to only sell cloud subscriptions in order to be up to date. As I said before; implementing self hosting would be a fairly small thing to do. You already have a code base for it. That is not fair, I think it stinks and reeks of greed. Sorry but that is my opinion and I'm more than sure that I have a lot of backing from other customers on this topic. At least judging from discussions on this forum. But I guess you are playing the long game where people finally give in and gets the subscription because it would be a hassle to change password-keeper. It's so blatantly obvious to me.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @sebrk: I made a silly typo in my last reply. What I meant to say was "No one has taken anything away from you."

    The standalone apps for 1Password have always been developed and sold per-platform, so purchasing 1Password for Mac versions 6 would not include 1Password for Windows version 6 — especially since it didn't exist at that time. And since the new Windows app does not support local vaults it wouldn't do you much good without a 1Password.com membership anyway. Even if it did, you're not entitled to get it for free unfortunately. I'm sure that a lot of people would agree with you that it's nice to get something for free. Heck, I do! But not getting paid for our work isn't going to allow us to sustainably continue improving 1Password. When we spend the time and effort to develop a new app I don't think it's greedy that there's a cost involved.

    If you'd like help transitioning to 1Password.com definitely shoot us an email with your receipts at support@1password.com and post your Support ID here so we can track it down right away. If you mistakenly paid twice for the same thing, we'll absolutely take that into account as well. :)

  • sebrk
    sebrk
    Community Member

    @brenty fair enough. This was not made clear to me. I'm accustomed to versions being somewhat the same regardless of platform.

    Let me rephrase it: I would gladly pay for a non-cloud version of Version 6 for Windows. I bet a lot of people want that judging from the threads concerning the issue. Question is if you will ever support it or keep pushing the subscription model?

    Seems you guys are saying different things.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @brenty fair enough. This was not made clear to me. I'm accustomed to versions being somewhat the same regardless of platform.

    @sebrk: Indeed, that seems to be where things have gone, and that's yet another reason why 1Password.com memberships exist: nowadays most folks expect to be able to use 1Password on all of their devices without worrying about which licenses to buy or how to sync the data. A lot has changed in the past decade.

    Let me rephrase it: I would gladly pay for a non-cloud version of Version 6 for Windows. I bet a lot of people want that judging from the threads concerning the issue.

    That remains to be seen. The response to 1Password.com has been really great, as most people don't want to deal with this stuff. You said yourself, "I expected to get version 6 regardless of platform." That's interesting, because it sounds like you do want the benefits of a 1Password.com membership (all of the apps, continually updated) but just aren't willing to pay for them.

    Question is if you will ever support it or keep pushing the subscription model? Seems you guys are saying different things.

    We're definitely committed to 1Password.com. I'm not sure how we could be clearer about that. We have a lot of customers there who are, as you point out, paying us a subscription to maintain and improve both the service and the apps. That's what we're focused on right now because we still have a lot of work to do in that area, only about a year in. Once the projects we're working on currently are completed we'll take a look at what needs to be done next.

  • sebrk
    sebrk
    Community Member

    I think you are missing my point. I can go with a subscription (if the price is low enough compared to standalone) on one confirm: that you let me host by myself. It's a win-win really. Also the bugging about 1Password.com is getting kinda old now.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni
    edited July 2017

    Hey, you brought these things up. I'm not going to pretend that a better solution doesn't exist. Even if it's not what you want, it enables features people have been asking us for for years, and that many people are . We already have apps with full support for local vaults (which you paid for and can continue to use), so we're focused on 1Password.com because work there can have the most impact, since it's relatively new and there's a lot of opportunity for improvement in areas which aren't possible with standalone apps.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @arianelu: Thanks for asking. Right now we've really got our work cut out for us with browser integration (Edge, Firefox, Chrome, and variants) so there's nothing to share in this area. It's something we'll have to take another look at once the dust settles.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    I didn't say we don't have long-term plans. But we don't share them publicly, as they're subject to change.

  • deadfrogtoaster
    deadfrogtoaster
    Community Member

    I'm with others on this thread. If there isn't a version of 1Password in the future that can let me store my vault locally/in Dropbox, I'm going to switch password vaults. I'm perfectly OK with paying for it, even on every platform (I have purchased 1Password on every platform). Money isn't an issue for me. If you want to create a model where I pay something like $40 for the software and $40/yr for software assurance/support, I'd be down with that. Whatever it is, I'd like to ensure that I have my data if AgileBits goes tits up and that the software to access it will continue to work.

    I've switched to being primarily a Windows and IOS user from OSX/IOS and if 1Password 4 is abandoned without replacement functionality in a future version, I will be forced to change. I'm not keeping my password data in your cloud service. It's not a matter of security, but data availability. Some of the data in these vaults drive significant portions of my livelihood. If AgileBits shuts up shop or your infrastructure gets boned, access to the data cannot be lost. Multiple backup copies need to be kept in case of corruption (hell... I have at least 5 copies of daily backups strewn across multiple locations). I maintain multiple vaults for different purposes and in order to feel safe with all of this, I must control my vaults. Full stop. End of discussion. I know how safe your cloud is. I work on cloud technology for a living. That isn't the point.

    It's been stated that we can just continue to use 4, which is fine. I've been using 4 and while it's laggy, has an out-of-place UI, and other complaints people have beat to death already, Microsoft has a way of introducing new things that can negatively affect software that is unmaintained. There is a certain concern (perhaps sense of impending doom) that MS will introduce something that breaks 4 and AgileBits won't have a solution in hand and will tell us folks who have a need for non-cloud vaults to either buy into the cloud solution or pound sand.

    The disappointing part is that I've worked 1Password into my life in such a way that the investment isn't just the money. It's also an incredibly good product- probably the best in the industry. It underpins a lot of the processes I perform every day, many times a day and the thought of switching products over this seems ludicrous. Waxing philosophical, it's disheartening that in today's world, removing functionality is seen as progress.

    Thanks to you guys for making a great product by the way. I think the anger you're getting in these threads is directly related to the passion folks have for the product. For me at least, it's turned into quite a bit more than just a simple password manager for my web browser.

    There's my two bits to throw in. If there's some sort of vote tally being kept, mark me in the "local vaults" and "dropbox" columns.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @deadfrogtoaster: That's interesting. I think you're probably right, but just as a matter of perspective I always think of how highly Microsoft clings to compatibility. And we do make an effort to ensure that 1Password is resilient as well. For example, while never officially supported, 1Password 4 works on Windows XP (Microsoft had already dropped support for the OS itself), and we still hear from folks using the original Windows app even though it's very old now and browsers have moved on long ago. And that's why we've just put a lot of work into making sure that 1Password 4 will continue to work with changes to Chrome and Firefox. So I expect will continue to have a long life as well.

    Regarding 1Password.com, while we have great data availability (and are HIPAA certified because of it) and the item history feature, you're right that customers need to be able to count on having access to their data. So while it's cached locally on authorized devices and can be exported even from a frozen account or offline, we're working on some initiatives to improve availability further on all fronts. This is really important to us, so I'm always glad to hear from other folks who feel the same way. (And of course that's apart from how motivated we are to continue running a sustainable business so we're able to keep doing what we love.)

    Thanks so much for both the kind words and fair criticism. Honestly, I'd love to be able to use my local vault sync'd with Dropbox in 1Password 6 too, but that isn't something we're able to work on right now. Most folks aren't doing what I'm doing and using those along with 1Password.com anyway, so we need to prioritize getting the new app to where 1Password 4 already has been for a while. We've put a lot of effort into making 1Password 4 solid, and we'll continue to release critical updates for it as well.

  • architect1337
    architect1337
    Community Member
    edited August 2017

    I still don't understand why people don't like a cloud solution, especially as it's based on AWS tech but there you go. I like the fact that the cloud solution has two Master keys, one I create and a long one created at install time. If my key is compromised, it doesn't matter.

    As for availability, that's a fair point. If agile bits stops paying their S3 bill, then I would be left with a local copy on all of my devices that could be updated per device, but wouldn't sync.

    Perhaps if a solution came out where you could export your cloud database to a local shared file compatible format, that may help? I guess the same could be true were Agilebits bought out and the new corporation were not as nice.

    If this were sorted, I don't think there would be an issue with people going down the cloud route ( for simplicity, security and diverse access if nothing else).

    Full price license should be that, full price. As an ongoing cloud subscriber, I don't want to pay for developer time to make these other versions - the local sync license should cover this.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    I still don't understand why people don't like a cloud solution, especially as it's based on AWS tech but there you go. I like the fact that the cloud solution has two Master keys, one I create and a long one created at install time. If my key is compromised, it doesn't matter.

    @architect1337: Why? You would have to give it to someone for them to have it since it's created locally. We never have it. And even if it does fall into the wrong hands, you can generate a new one (Profile page under "Manage").

    As for availability, that's a fair point. If agile bits stops paying their S3 bill, then I would be left with a local copy on all of my devices that could be updated per device, but wouldn't sync.
    Perhaps if a solution came out where you could export your cloud database to a local shared file compatible format, that may help? I guess the same could be true were Agilebits bought out and the new corporation were not as nice.

    That's a bit of a stretch, but even in that case you could go back to using local vaults and sync those yourself. We're in business to run a sustainable business so we can stay in business. We love what we do, so we charge enough to cover our costs: development, testing, support, hosting, etc. If nothing else, we want to keep 1Password going so we can continue to use it ourselves, and we love that others can too. :)

    If this were sorted, I don't think there would be an issue with people going down the cloud route ( for simplicity, security and diverse access if nothing else).

    What is the issue exactly?

    Full price license should be that, full price. As an ongoing cloud subscriber, I don't want to pay for developer time to make these other versions - the local sync license should cover this.

    I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding. If you're saying that a license purchase should entitle you to use that version and sync the data yourself, you're right and it already does. But if you mean that a one-time purchase of a license should get you hosting as well...well, that's not going to work, as that would be a self-fulfilling prophecy when we can't pay the ongoing costs for AWS and developing and maintaining the service you'd be using. ;)

  • architect1337
    architect1337
    Community Member

    I think you misunderstood my comments. They come from someone who supports the cloud based model and is having difficulties understanding why others can't see the merits of cloud based sync when they are so obvious. Maybe it's a language / cultural thing (being British) ;-)

    My point is - I like paying a regular subscription for certain tools knowing that I have access to all your products, that it helps pay for you to develop more features etc - a bit like an anti-virus subscripton. Security is always evolving.

    I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't trust the cloud model and/or is worried if access to cloud data is removed - the only two negative points I can think of. There are lots of positives since I've switched to family. I don't have to rely on tools like Dropbox / OneDrive / iCloud being available on all my devices. I don't have to install or configure them. Sync is fast and seamless on all my devices and so on.

    My last point above - as a cloud based subscriber, I wouldn't want to pay (indirectly via an annual rate increase) for Agilebits to create a whole new version just because people don't like the cloud model. It's a lot of extra work for you guys to support all these sync platforms so my point there is that if users want a local license - as a user, they shouldn't expect financial support from cloud users like myself (indirectly) to fund their choice - the user should pay full price for each platform they want to use and Agilebits should not increase cloud subscriptions to supplement this additional development that we, as cloud users, will not use. Equally, as you say, the local license users won't have access to cloud services - which is right.

    Perhaps you are too used to being bashed by the local sync brigade ;-)

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    I think you misunderstood my comments. They come from someone who supports the cloud based model and is having difficulties understanding why others can't see the merits of cloud based sync when they are so obvious. Maybe it's a language / cultural thing (being British) ;-)

    @architect1337: No, it's probably just me. Thanks for clarifying! :blush:

    My point is - I like paying a regular subscription for certain tools knowing that I have access to all your products, that it helps pay for you to develop more features etc - a bit like an anti-virus subscripton. Security is always evolving.

    Ah, that makes sense.

    I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't trust the cloud model and/or is worried if access to cloud data is removed - the only two negative points I can think of. There are lots of positives since I've switched to family. I don't have to rely on tools like Dropbox / OneDrive / iCloud being available on all my devices. I don't have to install or configure them. Sync is fast and seamless on all my devices and so on.

    Yeah, even as a long-time Dropbox user who is more than comfortable dealing with configuration, I'm glad to have less on my plate now too.

    My last point above - as a cloud based subscriber, I wouldn't want to pay (indirectly via an annual rate increase) for Agilebits to create a whole new version just because people don't like the cloud model. It's a lot of extra work for you guys to support all these sync platforms so my point there is that if users want a local license - as a user, they shouldn't expect financial support from cloud users like myself (indirectly) to fund their choice - the user should pay full price for each platform they want to use and Agilebits should not increase cloud subscriptions to supplement this additional development that we, as cloud users, will not use. Equally, as you say, the local license users won't have access to cloud services - which is right.

    That's an interesting point I haven't heard made previously. While we'll be selling the standalone version(s) of 1Password 7 to cover the costs of development and support of local vaults and related features, you're right that we haven't been explicit about this and some 1Password.com members might worry that they're subsidizing non-members. We wouldn't like that either, so we'll be sure to take that into account as well. Thank you for bringing this up!

    Perhaps you are too used to being bashed by the local sync brigade ;-)

    It's possible. But honestly no matter what some folks are unhappy. We won't be able to please everyone, but we do try to come up with solutions to help the most people we can because we genuinely care. Thanks for sharing your perspective! :)

This discussion has been closed.