1Password7, attachments and 1Password.com
Comments
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Three things for me
1, I cannot see a use case for the documents not being embedded\attached to the individual entries. (If not the linkages need to me more intelligent, be visible in both directions and move with the items). I'd rather not have to see the documents at all otherwise I'm feel the need to manage them and give them meaningful names etc.
2, The documents should move with the individual entries, they would if 1 was implemented properly
3, I should have the option to flag either globally or individually to download the documents automatically, this one is a huge problem, even if I live with 1 & 2, I have no easy well of telling whether my documents that I might need are actually on my device, especially when travelling. Also, even more scarily is how do I ensure my shared family members have downloaded the documents if I update them centrally without me reminding them and chasing them!!! This is just so not thought through.
Regards
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@jmd: Likewise, thanks for taking the time to get in touch. While Documents and the "released items" feature are a leap forward in a lot of ways, you're right that in some cases the current implementation can feel like a step backward. Ultimately our objective when designing this was to make 1Password much more flexible when it comes to securely storing files, and also items in general.
For example, now I can simply add files to my 1Password.com account without having to create a separate item first to attach it to, that I generally don't want in the first place. We often got messages from customers frustrated because they couldn't figure out how to save a file in 1Password, and they weren't generally thrilled with having to jump through these hoops once we explained to the how attachments work.
And we also had requests to have sync be more mobile-friendly and not eat up so much data. Previously the only way to avoid downloading everything in your vault to a mobile device was to create a separate vault to sync with that device containing a "minimal" database that had to be managed manually by the user. Not great, and considering how many of us have mobile devices we want to seamlessly access our data on nowadays (that's one of the key benefits of 1Password.com, after all!), it was pretty important to plan for that.
Similarly, while I really don't miss having to wait to sync a bunch of files every time I setup 1Password on a new device just to be able to access my dat, at the same time I've always wanted to be able to store files of much larger sizes (5MB was the limit before 1Password.com). In the past, often had to resort to compressing and re-compressing things just to get them to fit. I know I'm not alone in being glad to be free of those limitations.
But you're right: what we have now is imperfect. Even though there's a lot of flexibility and potential, we haven't fully utilized and realized that yet. I can also see how, in spite of the drawbacks of attachments, being used to the old way of doing things and then ending up with something new and unfamiliar that frankly isn't fully fleshed out yet can be equally frustrating. And if you didn't happen to run into those past limitations often, it's understandable that you'd question our sanity. ;)
So while, as Ben mentioned, this is the way it works now, we're not only aware that we need to do better, but we're also more than happy to get this sort of feedback with regard to your workflow and suggestions on how we might better accommodate you in the future. Apart from reverting to the old way of doing things (which just sticks us with the same problems again), I think that all of the specific requests you made are very reasonable, and we'll have to evaluate those along with others we've received as we continue to evolve the service and the apps along with it. For instance, while in many cases it's a good thing that all of the files are not downloaded to our mobile devices automatically, there are definitely instances where that would be desirable. So we'll probably need to offer a way to do that more easily. And automating things like setting up item links in both directions and reestablishing them when copying between vaults would also help a lot of people I think. I agree that we need to do better in that and other areas, and while I can't offer you the solutions you're looking for right now, the way that we've setup these features gives us the flexibility to make changes to improve it for you and others over time. Thank you for yours. :)
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Three things for me
1, I cannot see a use case for the documents not being embedded\attached to the individual entries. (If not the linkages need to me more intelligent, be visible in both directions and move with the items). I'd rather not have to see the documents at all otherwise I'm feel the need to manage them and give them meaningful names etc.@iwaddo: Well, I can tell you there are definitely use cases; but perhaps they just aren't of interest to you in your particular workflow. I could go either way on the naming thing. On the one hand, I can see how it might be nice to be able to hide them in some cases. On the other, I don't see how they'd show up in a search if they only have a nonsense name irrelevant to what you're searching for. And, sort of the flipside of that, while it can be a chore, giving all items in my 1Password vault meaningful names makes 1Password infinitely more useful. I am very much aware that there's an "upfront cost" to doing so, and that can discourage people for taking the time, but in my experience it saves me more time in the long run by making it so I can actually find stuff when I need it. Just my two cents. :)
2, The documents should move with the individual entries, they would if 1 was implemented properly
I can appreciate that you want that to happen, and certainly I do sometimes too. But in other cases I don't. And arguably someone moving only one item only wants that one item moved, or they'd select others. I think it might be nice if 1Password prompted to move related items in that case, but prompts can be annoying too. I guess what I'm saying is there's a lot to consider besides just your immediate use case. So it's good to get different perspectives. :)
3, I should have the option to flag either globally or individually to download the documents automatically, this one is a huge problem, even if I live with 1 & 2, I have no easy well of telling whether my documents that I might need are actually on my device, especially when travelling. Also, even more scarily is how do I ensure my shared family members have downloaded the documents if I update them centrally without me reminding them and chasing them!!! This is just so not thought through. Regards
I don't quite understand why you'd be hounding your loved ones, but we've discussed integrating something like this into Travel Mode. I think that would be helpful in some cases, but there are also many where it would not be desirable. Probably best to keep it separated, but I agree something in this vein would be helpful if done right. Thanks for your input! :)
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@brenty Thanks for responding. I think many of the complaints have been voiced before so I apologize if I am just rehashing some to the same complaints:
1) Linking Documents is NOT a two way link. Often I create new items that have documents associated with link. (Memberships may have a copy of membership card or my software purchases has a PDF of my receipt.) If I create a link from the primary item to the associated document, the reverse link is NOT created. In my mind these two items are intrinsically linked and should have a two way association If I open an item, I can click the link to the document. I should be able to do the reverse WITHOUT having to manually create the reverse link.
2) When moving items between Vaults, the documents are NOT moved as well. Since the item and document at link, I personally consider them one item and expect when moving one that the other would move. Even through I am Household user, I think this would be a big issue with 1Password Teams that probably have a large number of vaults shared between various groups. (If anything, this could be an optional item. If 1P detects when moving a item between vaults that there is a linked document, offer to move the document at the same time.)
3) To me having all these extra "documents" in my vaults is (to me) just clutter. 99% percent of time, if I am looking for a document, I am probably going to search for the item instead of the document itself. I don't need to see all these documents as separate items in my vaults.
I understand that #3 is a preference and may not be shared by all, but I think fixing #1 and #2 would go along away to making documents behave better when linked to items.
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Thanks for responding. I think many of the complaints have been voiced before so I apologize if I am just rehashing some to the same complaints:
@Tribruin: No worries. Happy for the feedback regardless. :)
1) Linking Documents is NOT a two way link. Often I create new items that have documents associated with link. (Memberships may have a copy of membership card or my software purchases has a PDF of my receipt.) If I create a link from the primary item to the associated document, the reverse link is NOT created. In my mind these two items are intrinsically linked and should have a two way association If I open an item, I can click the link to the document. I should be able to do the reverse WITHOUT having to manually create the reverse link.
To clarify, I didn't say that "related items" were bidirectional. Certainly it is possible to setup links both ways, but that's not something 1Password does automatically at this time. That's why I mentioned that it's something we may add in the future. It really depends on the person/situation if that's desirable though, so it's helpful to know that would be your preference!
2) When moving items between Vaults, the documents are NOT moved as well. Since the item and document at link, I personally consider them one item and expect when moving one that the other would move. Even through I am Household user, I think this would be a big issue with 1Password Teams that probably have a large number of vaults shared between various groups. (If anything, this could be an optional item. If 1P detects when moving a item between vaults that there is a linked document, offer to move the document at the same time.)
Correct. If you move a Secure Note or whatever, only that Secure Note will be moved. Other items are not moved unless you select and move them as well. Based on the feedback I've seen, there's more consensus (though not complete) that most folks would prefer the behaviour you're suggesting. But it isn't trivial because these vaults are all encrypted with separate keys to facilitate secure sharing. Otherwise you sharing one vault with a person would give them access to all of your vaults. Each vault is completely separate, so that means items have to be recreated and reencrypted when moving to a new one.
3) To me having all these extra "documents" in my vaults is (to me) just clutter. 99% percent of time, if I am looking for a document, I am probably going to search for the item instead of the document itself. I don't need to see all these documents as separate items in my vaults.
I guess the question I have is "why?" What's in the other item that isn't covered by the Document? Before it was necessary to have a Secure Note or something to attach the file to, but it's possible that many of those items are now obsolete since the Document is its own item. At least that's been my experience with my own data. I'd be curious to have some examples from you.
I understand that #3 is a preference and may not be shared by all, but I think fixing #1 and #2 would go along away to making documents behave better when linked to items.
Neither would really be a "fix", but certainly both would be quality of life improvements for many. We'll see what we can do. :)
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@Tribruin nicely captures my complaints:
1) Linking Documents is NOT a two way link.
2) When moving items between Vaults, the documents are NOT moved as well.
3) To me having all these extra "documents" in my vaults is (to me) just clutter.Let me use my Driver License item as an example. I enter all the relevant information, use my iPhone to take pictures of the front and back of the physical license, and then attach them to the Item. Now, under 1Password.com, I have two Document items cluttering up my All Items view that are named unhelpfully IMG_9834.JPG and IMG_9835.JPG, so they are not sorted near my Driver License nor is it clear what they are.
@brenty, while in principle I agree with this advice:
while it can be a chore, giving all items in my 1Password vault meaningful names makes 1Password infinitely more useful. I am very much aware that there's an "upfront cost" to doing so, and that can discourage people for taking the time, but in my experience it saves me more time in the long run by making it so I can actually find stuff when I need it.
It doesn't (yet) address items #1 and #2. And even if I rename them to something intelligent (more steps!) they are still clutter--I really can't imagine wanting to search for and open the picture of the backside of my Driver License absent first consulting the Driver License Item with the key data.
I think others have raised this as well, but even with all the above addressed, accessing that picture has gone from: go to Driver License, scroll down, hit Quick Look on image, to a longer sequence of steps: go to Driver License, scroll down, click on link to attachment, click again to download, then hit Quick Look on image. And presumably, if item #1 is addressed, seeing the other side of my license would require hitting some sort of Back button and repeating that lengthy process. Let's add that to @Tribruin's list as:
4) Documents add UX friction.
Ultimately I think there are two separate concepts here: "attachments" vs. "documents". I think they have the following characteristics:
Attachments are always associated with only one Item in my vault, being generally supporting information having little value outside that item. I want immediate access to that attachment (or multiple attachments) while interacting with that item (and therefore the attachment should be available offline with no additional action from me).
Documents might be standalone items but they could also be linking (one way or another) to other items in my vault. Multiple Items may want to link to that Document as a reference, but that document is not critical information associated with that item (therefore it not being cached is not the end of the world).
While you can simulate attachments via links, they carry overhead associated with @Tribruin's three concerns AND my fourth on additional UX friction.
I'd like to suggest that you don't try to simulate attachments but rather support both Attachments AND Documents as distinct data types. Modify the structure of Items to included fields for true "attachments" (as would be seen in a local vault today) and a section Related Items. And allow me to have both as necessary. Attachments would behave has they historically have--no extra document in the All Items view, syncs with vault, etc.
Okay, I already know the key objection: user confusion. And I accept that is non-trivial. But I think with a carefully designed UI most users would be able to distinguish the difference. Add to that some careful UX to pop up a dialog of the sort, "You are attaching a file to this Item. It will only be available when viewing this item. If you want to save the attachment so that it can be viewed separately as a Document please drag it to the Related Items section below instead." And of course include some some sort of "I got it, don't explain this to me again." checkbox.
That said, I'm not sure my UX challenge is any more difficult than the direction I imagine you are heading based on:
For instance, while in many cases it's a good thing that all of the files are not downloaded to our mobile devices automatically, there are definitely instances where that would be desirable. So we'll probably need to offer a way to do that more easily.
In fact, this seems messier to me and only address a very small part of the problem.
In summary, while I will applaud the 1Password Team if they address concerns #1 and #2, but will continue to struggle with #3 and #4.
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I don't quite understand why you'd be hounding your loved ones
I envisaged using a shared secure vault to make documents (attached to secure notes) and information available to other family members. Most of the time they will have an internet connection but at other times perhaps not. Travelling is a good example but there may be others. Speed of access would also be a concern.
If I change one of these documents or information items I need to be assured that the family have the up to date copy on their devices without me chasing the.
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Thanks for the continued feedback on this folks. We have discussed the possibility of having both Documents (which we view as more flexible) and attachments be a part of the service. It isn’t something we’re going to be able to do in the short term, but it may be a long term possibility. This would allow for the best of both options.
Having relations between items be bi-directional by default is also an interesting idea that I think is worth consideration.
Ben
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Spent the better half of the evening trying to switch from 7 Subscription to 7 StandAlone. UGH.
Love your v1-6 products but 7's implementation of inline attachments is completely useless and the UI utterly Byzantine.
Canceled my subscription account - returning to v6 - please let us know when you sort this out.
Don't need your cloud, just a straight path from 6Dropbox to 7Dropbox Thanks0 -
on June 25, I posted a copy of an email I sent to Dave Teare. I received a detailed response from Rick Fillion, one of the developers who was responsible for the changes we are discussing here. I found it informative and encouraging, and it gives me increased confidence that fixes to the issues we have addressed will actually occur. I thought the community might find it helpful, so, with his permission, I am posting his reply here:
I'm not Dave, but hopefully he won't mind me answering this for him. I was part of the team that designed the new Documents feature, and so I feel responsible for what you're seeing and feeling.
Before I dive into anything, I want to be clear that I think you're right. I can (and will) talk about how superior Documents are from a technological perspective, but at the end of the day that doesn't matter if the experience is sub-par. We want to make it better, and I think we've got some good ideas for how to make it better.
To understand why we're where we are today, it helps to understand where we started from.
1Password Attachments as you knew and loved them actually suffered from a number of problems. You might not have ever encountered them, but they accounted for a large number of our support problems and kept 1Password back in a number of ways. For example, attachments had a 5MB limit for each file you added. This limit was based on the fact that an attachment was very much bolted on to an item. This meant that doing sync required always downloading all of the attachments on all devices. On desktops with good internet connections this isn't generally a problem. But on mobile devices, needing to download 25MB of data before you can get the one item change you actually care about on a sketchy 3G connection... it wasn't good. So the way that data is synced with the vaults prior to 1Password.com was a big limiting factor in how much better we could do things. With sync via iCloud we had done things a little better, but it's still not great. But at the same time, we wanted to store so much more into 1Password. I have all sorts of important documents that I need to store encrypted. Signed contracts that I need to keep absolutely confidential. In our old model, to add each of these, I would need to create a dummy item, like say a Secure Note, then add the file as an attachment. That's pretty terrible as now I'm stuck with a bunch of secure notes with no real meaning other than to host attached files.
When we started building 1Password.com one of our goals was to totally re-imagine 1Password and files interacted. We were no longer shackled by the old way of doing things, we now have a server that can help coordinate things, and so we went about designing a completely new system. A system that I'm still hugely proud of to this day. Let's take a look at what we've done:
Completely decoupled encrypted files from items from a technical perspective. This allows 1Password to sync all of your items really quickly without needing to deal with the files that may be associated with them. This decoupling and the change in sync behavior is what's causing what you're seeing as an irritating behavior on mobile. You're used to having access to all of your attachments, and I get that. My phone is pretty constrained for space though, and I want users to be able to store tons of data into 1Password, far more than what a phone would be expected to have/download. So we've started by having files be downloaded only on demand. When you download a file locally to your mobile device it'll remain on that device until you explicitly say that you'd like to remove the downloaded copy (or when your phone runs out of space and the operating system politely asks us to get rid of data so that you can keep using your phone). This behavior isn't perfect, and it definitely needs tweaking. I know that in our desktop apps we're considering a preference to have files always be downloaded automatically. I'd love to see us add an option to do something similar or find a better middle ground on mobile. The important part is that the decoupling we did still benefits you and downloading of files has nothing to do with syncing of your data. You benefit from that huge change even if downloading all of the files was to happen.
We promoted files to be first class citizens within 1Password. I still think this was a good idea, but I think we took it too far. Because of Document items, I can finally store my contracts within 1Password without having to resort to having a dummy Secure Note to house an attachment. I love this idea, but where I think we went wrong is in the next one...
We wanted to improve 1Password and add the ability to link items together. For example, it would be nice if my credit card item was linked to the login item for my bank so that I could quickly jump from one to the other. It's a neat idea, and one we haven't done too much with yet beyond making it possible to do. But where I think we went wrong was in thinking "we have Documents as a way to represent a file, and we have linked items to associate things, we could build attachments out of that."
We wanted files in 1Password to be editable. Few of our apps support this (I think it may only be the web app at the moment), but it was important for us that we design things such that you could edit a file that was in your 1Password vault, and it would do the right thing. I want to use 1Password to do basic encrypted storage. We've designed it to support that.
So we've used those ideas to re-imagine how 1Password worked with files in a few ways. For example custom icons use the same redesign under the hood. Previously we had to put incredibly low limits on the resolution of icons for use as custom icons in 1Password because they could add significant bloat to a vault and cause syncing to slow down to an unacceptable level. Now custom icons can be gorgeous and they're stored far larger than we ever show them just to future proof things. Custom icons is an example of us having used that redesign properly. You as a user got nothing but benefits out of it.
In the case of attachments, we faultered. In some cases I like being able to find a Document that's associated with an item without first finding the item for it. But having lived with this day to day for a long time now I see that it's not the right default. Having an item + attachmetn become an item + document + link isn't the right move.
In the case of linked items in general, I think we absolutely need to do more to help with navigation. Going from item 1 to item 2, you should have a way to go back to item 1 and your context within the app shouldn't be lost. Our iPhone app actually does this correctly, and I'd love for our other apps to do so as well.
The issues you've experienced with copying items with links between vaults or accounts really irks me personally. There's no reason that we can't do that. It requires some elbow grease, but it can be done.
Here's where I'd like to see us take things in the hopefully not-too-distant future...
I'd love for the concept of a true item attachment to come back. That is, a file referenced within an item that does not require a Document item and a link. I think this should be the default way to add files to 1Password. I also think that we should keep Document items, cause they do still have some great use cases. I think all of our apps should support moving items across vaults and just do the work necessary for the links to be torn down and recreated properly.I suspect that if we did those things, you'd be much happier. We would still be getting all of the benefits that we aimed for in our redesigning efforts, while maintaining an experience that's more familiar for users. It seems like a pretty obvious win from here.
I'm happy to answer any questions you might have regarding this or any other feature of 1Password.
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@jmd That's good insight.
I use Secure Notes exactly as described by the developer, but his reason for not wanting to use Secure Notes anymore really seems like semantics. How about you keep Documents and just allow us to add multiple items to a Documents item? It's effectively just a more focused Secure Notes item. I don't ever foresee needing to add a single Documents item with one document and having no context to it. I will almost certainly always use Secure Notes, because the document itself rarely stands on its own.
Anyway, I'll be using standalone versions of 1Password until they fix this debacle--and of course if they stop standalone versions altogether and still haven't fixed this problem, I'll migrate away from 1Password. The whole thing has gotten so expensive, and as someone who pays for tonnes of iCloud storage with family sharing turned on, the last thing I want to do is spend a fortune on 1GB just for 1Password; I think 1Password overestimates themselves. Not to mention, if I migrated now, my vault is 835MB, so I'll get a year or less before I hit the cap. Then what happens?
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We don't charge based on storage space and there is no limit, except for Documents. Only Documents count toward any kind of a storage quota. As far as I'm aware we haven't had anyone hit that quota yet...
1Password membership isn't just another cloud storage solution. A comparison to iCloud isn't really fair. 1Password membership is a custom tailored solution for 1Password. For most intents and purposes it is 1Password. It is the software, the service, and the storage.
Ben
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@binarychunk: We haven't made a change to how Documents work in 1Password 7. That's how they worked in version 6 as well, as this is a 1Password.com feature. You can purchase a license for version 7 and use that with local vaults sync'd via Dropbox. That hasn't changed.
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We don't charge based on storage space and there is no limit, except for Documents.
"[...] except for Documents."
Exactly my point. This whole discussion is about Documents. You think I have 835MB of passwords? C'mon. I'll run out of space immediately. My question stands: then what happens? I'm 165MB away from being the first person to hit that quota; that's not a lot.
Also, it's easy to claim something is unlimited when we're talking about storing a handful of bytes per username/password. You're not lying or anything, but you're sure hoping it sounds better than what it is. You might as well also market the unlimited air that comes with reading 1Password support, because there's a whole lot of it in this discussion.
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I see. From your post I wasn’t sure if we were on the same page regarding that point, so I wanted to clarify. At the moment I don’t believe there is any way to purchase additional storage largely in part because I don’t believe we’ve ever actually had someone reach that limit and ask for more. Obviously we will need to implement that at some point, though.
Ben
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I don't quite understand why you'd be hounding your loved ones
I notice you have not commented on why I'd be hounding my relatives. Is this problem actually acknowledged by the team and likely to be on a 'fix' list, I do consider this a bug, is there a formal way to log bugs?
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I do consider this a bug, is there a formal way to log bugs?
Not for non-staff, no. We do have an internal bug-tracking system, but for users, informing us here of via email that you believe you've found a bug is the best way to go about it. And you've already done that! :)
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I envisaged using a shared secure vault to make documents (attached to secure notes) and information available to other family members. Most of the time they will have an internet connection but at other times perhaps not. Travelling is a good example but there may be others. Speed of access would also be a concern. If I change one of these documents or information items I need to be assured that the family have the up to date copy on their devices without me chasing the.
@iwaddo: Thanks for clarifying! That's good to know, and something we can take into account with changes we make in future versions of the apps. But, to be clear, regardless of what we do, each of us will always face challenges with this and need to stay on top of things. If I make changes on one device, the others won't get those changes if they're offline or just plain off. And the mobile apps cannot run in the background to get changes, so we still need to open 1Password to allow it to sync changes. Certainly the technology may evolve in the future, but this isn't something we have control over. In the mean time, sharing a vault with loved ones allows us to help them manage things at least.
I notice you have not commented on why I'd be hounding my relatives. Is this problem actually acknowledged by the team and likely to be on a 'fix' list, I do consider this a bug, is there a formal way to log bugs?
Sorry! I don't comment in all discussions every day and missed yours. Just to clarify, this isn't a bug. It's very much working as designed. But we've already acknowledged that there's room for improvement, and we're evaluating different ways of doing that across all of the apps. Thanks for the feedback! :)
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If I click a linked attachment it jumps to the attachment and leaves the record. But I need to stay in the record with the other information.
It can't be repeated often enough: You totally ruined 1Password with Version 7. Really!
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Thanks for the feedback.
Ben
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@Nicolinix: What you're referring to has nothing to do with 1Password 7. That's how item linking worked in 1Password 6 as well for 1Password.com accounts. We're may be able to make this bidirectional in the future, but in the mean time you're free to setup additional links between items in 1Password for Mac if you wish.
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No that is totally wrong. When I click an attachment in v6 the attachment just opens. If I click an attachment in v7 the app jumps to "documents". So if I need more information from the original record I actually opened I have to search for it again.
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@Nicolinix - sounds like you may have switched from a standalone setup to a 1password.com account? Attachments exist in standalone 1Password setups, where an external file is directly attached to (contained within) a specific item; that's why they open immediately when clicking. Documents do not exist in standalone 1Password, only 1password.com accounts. If you're using a 1password.com account, this is why you're seeing the behavior -- and it's not a function of version 6 vs version 7.
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Scenario 1:
v6 standalone icloud-sync => v7 standalone icloud (app store): ALL records who had attachments are totally lostSzenario 2:
=> v6 standalone icloud-sync => v7 1password.eu account: attachments in documents folder = big mess
Also: if I click a attachment it takes me to documents.... (please don't even try to explain that that makes any sense)So both scenario are no solution.
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@Nicolinix - I'm not sure what you're referring to? You tried both of these ways? Why? The second scenario you're describing is indeed how the software is supposed to function in a 1password.com account: it uses Documents instead of direct attachments. In the first situation, if you have items with attached documents in iCloud, they will still be there in upgraded versions; going from version 6 to version 7 does not alter the contents of the data in iCloud. What happens if you re-open version 6? Do you see your attachments there?
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"The second scenario you're describing is indeed how the software is supposed to function in a 1password.com account: it uses Documents instead of direct attachments."
=> Yes and as I already told you if I click on the link the software jumps to that document. I need one more click to download it (why does it not download itself????) And now, if I need information from the original record I first opened (where the document is linked) I need to search again for it. It is just a very bad workflow.
Better: Show attachment/document right where it is "linked".
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@Nicolinix - thanks for the feedback.
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@Nicolinix - we don't normally announce what's in upcoming updates as many factors (some beyond our control) affect them.
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