1Password7, attachments and 1Password.com

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Comments

  • Nicolinix
    Nicolinix
    Community Member
    edited October 2018

    @Lars Where is the sense of this forum if the feedback doesn't effect to the roadmap?

  • Lars
    Lars
    1Password Alumni

    @Nicolinix - we listen to every bit of feedback our users take the time to share with us, both here and via email and social media. But - as I believe I explained to you earlier in another thread - it would be literally impossible for us to pursue every suggestion made by users, since many of them are 180° opposite from one another. What we do is listen to user feedback and add it to our own judgment about what direction we should be headed in, which things to dedicate limited developer-hours to. What things will benefit the greatest number of users? What security implications are there, if any? What else would be put on the back burner or abandoned if we choose to pursue this thing? How many people are affected by it? What are the most popular requests? These and quite a number of other considerations go into the decisions we make about what to pursue and what direction to take 1Password. You've been quite clear over multiple threads about what you'd like: 1) for us to immediately implement support for your preferred sync method, Tresorit, and 2) to alter the behavior of selecting Documents that are linked in other items in 1password.com accounts, within 1Password for Mac. We heard you, and thanks for making your wishes known. :)

  • xz4gb8
    xz4gb8
    Community Member

    Long long ago in a Ford Galaxy far away, The transition to separate 1Password objects for attachments was done automatically as part of upgrading to 1Password 7. I had to ask AgileBit about it because it was a bit of a What?... moment for me since no one had warned me in advance. That moment soon passed after received advice from AgileBits. This change has made no practical difference in using 1Password, except to simplify linking a document object to several other objects. Yes, relinking a hundred or so documents did take a bit of time and patience. But I only had to do it once.

    Many entries ago right here in this thread @Corey_C said, "1Password is not actually intended as a general filing system." I don't disagree, but it is the best distributed secure storage for random objects that I have ever found. And, only one subscription to rule them all! It is where I keep My Precious documents.

  • Nicolinix
    Nicolinix
    Community Member
    edited October 2018

    @xz4gb8

    "Yes, relinking a hundred or so documents did take a bit of time and patience. But I only had to do it once."

    => I buy an app to make my day easier. I don't need an app where I have to edit tons of records manually "every few versions".

  • Nicolinix
    Nicolinix
    Community Member
    edited October 2018

    @Lars1

    Thats not all I'm complaining. Did you read this thread: https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/96408/please-bring-back-the-clear-design-from-v6#latest

    Also I just recognised that it's not even possible to drag&drop attachments from 1Password to the Desktop. Usecase: I have an Passport-record and attach an picture of my passport to it. If I need the picture outside of 1Password I need to go a long way to get that picture copied to my desktop... (1Password 7 with 1Password.eu Account)

    1Password 6 / iCloud Sync it was possible!!!

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @xz4gb8: Thats an interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing! Indeed, not everyone uses (or even thinks of) 1Password the same way, so it's a bit of a balancing act to try to find a good middle ground (talk about mixing metaphors, but hopefully that makes sense). We cannot change 1Password to satisfy every preference/request/etc., because as Lars mentioned, there's a lot of conflict and contradiction there: not everyone wants the same thing. I don't think 1Password is perfect, but we're always evaluating what we can do to make it better, preferably without causing problems for more people in the process of trying to satisfy others. We never get bored. :lol:

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    "Yes, relinking a hundred or so documents did take a bit of time and patience. But I only had to do it once."

    => I buy an app to make my day easier. I don't need an app where I have to edit tons of records manually "every few versions".

    @Nicolinix: I get where you're coming from, but that's just not even true. Documents have nothing to do with the 1Password version. They work the same way in 1Password 7 and they did in 1Password 6. And file storage isn't something we'd changed before, ever. So, quite literally, it would just be once if you needed to make some adjustments. I'm sorry that's a bit of an inconvenience, but sometimes we need to make changes in order to move forward — both as developers and as users. I do apologize though that we haven't communicated this well.

    I'm sorry that you're not a fan of how Documents work in 1Password.com accounts, but iwaddo made a really interesting statement earlier:

    I cannot see a use case for the documents not being embedded\attached to the individual entries

    I think part of the difficulty is that the way Documents work is less about Documents than it is a bigger change in 1Password.com accounts: any items can be linked to each other. This was a long standing request, and while some people may not care at all, or not see the benefit of Documents themselves, there are a ton of people that appreciate the flexibility afforded by this change.

    And there's still more we can do in this area to make it more useful to more people. If you have suggestions for improvements that would help your workflow, let us know and we'll absolutely take that into account along with everyone else's feedback. Good example here:

    Also I just recognised that it's not even possible to drag&drop attachments from 1Password to the Desktop. Usecase: I have an Passport-record and attach an picture of my passport to it. If I need the picture outside of 1Password I need to go a long way to get that picture copied to my desktop... (1Password 7 with 1Password.eu Account) 1Password 6 / iCloud Sync it was possible!!!

    With "1Password 7 / iCloud Sync" it is still possible. But you're right: that would be a good addition to 1Password account Documents. For now, you can use the menu to open the downloaded file in Finder:

    Thanks for the feedback!

  • bud
    bud
    Community Member

    Wow, I just this morning upgraded from 1P v6 to v7 and am also very disappointed by how documents/attachments work. I agree with most of the comments in this thread about wishing that attachments continued to work the same in v7 as v6. I'm not against having the ability to have separate documents and link various entities within 1P, but the hundreds of attachments I have just became a huge mess and problem. I like to be able to move items between vaults for sharing and other reasons, and now in v7 the links to the documents break when I do this. But, I think I figured out that local vaults still retain the attachment behavior found in v6, so I'm going to stay with the v7 membership/subscription just for the included upgrades but continue to just use local vaults with Dropbox sync. I don't care about those other new features of 1password.com anyway. So I won't have any vaults in 1password.com and thus no standalone document items in my vaults, just attachments.
    Unless an agilebits person can tell me I'm missing something important, that's going to be my strategy going forward.
    Thanks.

  • Lars
    Lars
    1Password Alumni

    @bud

    I agree with most of the comments in this thread about wishing that attachments continued to work the same in v7 as v6.

    They do. If you want to retain the exact same functionality of attachments in 1Password 7 for Mac that you had in 1Password 6 for Mac, then install the version of 1Password 7 for Mac available from our downloads page, and choose a standalone license instead of a 1password.com membership/account. The difference between attachments and Documents is not a version 6 vs. version 7 issue, it's that you (apparently) switched from a standalone setup to a 1password.com account. There are a lot of advantages to a membership, but if those are outweighed for you by the change from direct attachments to Documents, you can certainly go the standalone route in 1Password 7 for Mac if you wish. Hope that helps! :)

  • bud
    bud
    Community Member

    Thanks Lars, but to ME the biggest difference between the standalone version and membership is the included upgrades, i.e., cost. That seems to be downplayed or not mentioned very strongly on the web site and in the support forum threads. The membership costs me ~$36/yr. The standalone version is $50 to upgrade. Historically it seems we get a new version about every year. If my cost/yr looked lower with the standalone version, I'd go that route, but I think the membership route is cheaper. I get my 2 Macs, my iPhone, and iPad for the one membership fee. Before I had to pay for my Mac and iOS versions separately.
    I know there are other benefits to the membership. I've read all the stuff on the web site and in the forum many times. I don't really care about or want any of those other benefits. I've been syncing just fine with Dropbox for years. I've been backing up and restoring via Time Machine and CrashPlan for a long time as well. I don't need or care about travel mode.
    So, the membership gets me version 7 cheaper, and I can still use local vaults. Done.

    BTW, tell me I'm wrong, but I found it extremely difficult to figure all this out. The cost of the standalone version was not readily available on the pricing page, but I did find it discussed in the forum by other customers. Apparently one has to download and start through the install process before finding the price. Yuck! I also did not find clear documentation about how attachments vs. documents work and the options (regardless of v6 or v7) one has for preserving the attachment behavior by using local vaults. The only way I found out was spending many hours today trying things and reading on the support forum.

    I still love 1Password, but man, it was a very frustrating day doing what I thought would be a simple upgrade.

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    @bud: That's certainly one way of looking at it. :)

    Regarding licenses, you can find pricing in the announcement detailing what's new:

    1Password 7 for Mac: The Best Ever

    Most people aren't interested in reading "documentation" about Documents, attachments, etc.; they just want to store their stuff and be done with it. But we're happy to answer these kinds of questions for folks who are curious. :) :+1:

    Back to 1Password.com, I think most people are happiest about having built-in sync and other membership-only features which depend on the hosted service...but you're right that getting all of the apps alone is a pretty good deal — especially for those of us using 1Password on many devices. Anyway, we're just glad you found a setup that works for you, and appreciate your support! :chuffed:

  • Lars
    Lars
    1Password Alumni

    @bud - just to add to what brenty said a bit, the reason there's no documentation of standalone pricing on our pricing page is that we'er not actively promoting it as a way for new users to use 1Password at this point. It's there if people (like existing users) know it exists and know they want it instead of a 1password.com membership. But 1password.com membership is by far the easiest and most reliable way for the vast majority of users to use 1Password these days that we don't promote the concept of standalone licensing any more. Featuring it prominently on our pricing page would make new users think it was merely another choice they could make that wasn't any different from choosing between colors of shirt to buy. We actually did do it for a while after 1password.com was first introduced:

    ...and it was a mess: people didn't understand the difference and deluged us with questions, or (worse) bought the wrong thing because they didn't understand, then were angry that they couldn't use the benefits of 1password.com because they bought the license instead, or didn't see why their wife/boyfriend/kids couldn't use it, or they couldn't use 1Password on their PC if they bought a Mac license. We decided to focus on the best 1Password experience we have, and that is 1password.com.

  • pruski
    pruski
    Community Member

    A lot has been said in this forum. I've been using 1Password since the early days and started on the Mac. Working in the field of both Business administration and IT (Enterprise and IT Security architecture) I have literally a ton of use cases at which 1 Password saved the day.

    Although I love the Mac, I work with the same proficiency with Windows and Linux. Because of my work I have several notebooks preloaded with different Operating Systems, Security Levels and switch between mobile operating systems quite often. In the past the spectrum was somewhat broader with QNX Blackberry OS (10), Windows Mobile, iOS and Android, however, I'm still switching between the remaining platforms.

    Now, there's a professional scenario and a personal one in my daily use. However both are driven by the secure storage enclave (an encrypted file or a storage set of multiple encrypted files) that hold both data, metadata and my files, the multiplatform synchronization option and the possibility to store everything on premise.

    There are several use cases that forbid synchronizing data to a cloud environment. 1Password is not an enterprise-level password manager, but for both personal and SMB-use it always has been a wonderful application.

    Now, why the big deal with files? Well, as already mentioned it was a secure enclave that was pretty portable: you could store it on dropbox, copy the damn thing across devices or synchronize it locally using (local) WiFi. Now, I'm not saying that I'm a Young Buck, but with "42.000 miles" on the counter doesn't make me a dinosaur (yet) ;-). I know the power of "ancient" technologies such as mainframes, midframes and modern technologies such as cloud, micro services and other concepts very well. It makes me sad to see that when it comes to technology brilliant ideas and sometimes very well written software is being destroyed in order to hop on the cloud bandwagon.

    With all due respect, cloud has some advantages, but also some disadvantages. We live in a challenging world today: corporate espionage, governments that have increased privileges in monitoring "their flock", cyber criminals and commercial metrics that challenge ethics and foremost people's privacy.

    You have built an application that is truly a tool. One of the best compliment one can get and confirmation of its usefulness is the variety of the way people use your tool across the world. And here comes the catch: the World is a large place with very, very different views, uses and therefore workflows.

    Some time ago someone mentioned that the old way of synching was a terrible data hog, especially over a 3G (UMTS) plan. To give you some examples: in Asia, Eastern and Northern Europe people use LTE+ (Advanced) in a lot of rural areas with 50/100Mbps or even 200Mbps transfer speeds with data plans ranging from 20GB to 1 TERABYTE (I'm not kidding you). Fixed infrastructure already provides in 200Mbit up to 1000 Gigabit per second (125 full Megabytes of data) per second. So I don't really see what the problem can be with a 14 megabyte, 50 megabyte or even 800 megabyte file. What you Could've added was a form of compression before encryption of attachments or (even better) to let the user choose if he (or she) want to optimize a document before storing it (either by resampling an image or PDF, (re)compressing the document or providing an option to use an external storage vault).

    Leaving the user with a choice means that one can adjust his (or her) workflow accordingly. If I don't mind large files: why not let me store attachments the old way; If I want ease of use, flexibility and optimization: let me use an external vault - but make it easy to manage those files by automating the link process.

    However, there's one thing I always liked about 1Password: it never was hard to import or export data in either the 1PIF format or CSV. I have business cases at which it was great to make an export, adjust the file (format it properly) into an excel and 'et voila': I could share login names of various virtual machines for test purposes with a client …

    Or: I could send a couple of records (or single record) WITH attachment within an encrypted 7z, tar.gz or plain ZIP (depending on the data classification) that a another user could easily add to his (or her) Vault without having to link or sync using an online service.

    Example: countries with a regime that received (either you believing this or not) a printed BINHEXED or UUENCODED document that held an heavily compressed and encrypted document that could be scanned, OCR'd and recreated to a record that could be securely stored in your vault on an encrypted drive (non bitlocker) within an encrypted volume and all the high security measures just in case providing either a key to human right documents or access to free internet or other documentation …

    I can't say anything else then Thank You for your great software over the years. But I ask you to reconsider your plans and reintroduce some of the lost features. Security is not about being sheepish … Cloud is not an end in itself, there is a lot more to come and in some cases it's wise not to focus on the cloud all that much.

    And what about making your application really platform independent. Microsoft Visual Code Editor and various other apps are available as a Windows, Mac and Linux download nowadays. Currently 1 Password 4 is the last one to run within Crossover Office, however, a native App would be so nice.

    I remain a loyal fan, but only promises about the future will not be enough to remain faithful and I'm sure this includes a large portion of to the loyal (existing) customer base. In fact, it can be a trigger to search for alternatives (or to build them yourself).I understand that software development is not an easy topic. And certainly that there is a lot more to it than most people think. But in the end it's about the end user and your tools that he or she can use. Not about the technological superiority. Not about your vision of what a file system should be, data models, encryption algorithms or other visions. We have seen it too often in the past: companies that are absorbed in technological possibilities or changes that are good - it's easy to forget that people are habitual animals and good tools are fairly static. After all, otherwise you can not become skilled with it. Interface changes are fun, the features may even be sexy, but if I have to learn everything again for the umpteenth time, that is annoying. If it helps my workflow to damnation, it is even annoying. Just think of the criticism of current online tools like Office 365 or the relatively short update cycle of iOS and macOS at Apple to name a few. Having to get to used to "improvements" a couple of times a year sounds like not that bad. But then imagine: online Word, Excel, Power Point, Projects, Keynote, Pages or Numbers ... Online VoIP services, banking and passwordmanagers just to name a few. A simple change here and there might have a significant impact on people there workflows (and sometimes even lives).

    Anyway: Good luck with making the right decisions :-) …

    Best Regards,

    Just another user ...

  • AGAlumB
    AGAlumB
    1Password Alumni

    To be clear. 1Password can still be used without “the cloud” — with a local vault. I appreciate you getting in touch, but your comments seem to be based on the premise that it does not. But you’re right: if you’re using WLAN Server to sync on a local network, cellular data and speed limitations aren’t really applicable. But for other people not you, they can be. You’ll also find that encrypted data (and already compressed data, like images, which are popular file attachements) does not compress efficiently.

    Anyway, thanks for letting us know what you think. Im glad to hear that you’ve been enjoying 1Password. I agree that it would be nice to have a native Linux app though. No one has offered “promises about the future”, but hopefully we’ll be able to create one down the road. Not something that will happen overnight though, and there’s a lot of other stuff to do. Cheers! :)

  • Lars
    Lars
    1Password Alumni

    @pruski - thanks for the thoughtful post, and especially for having been a long-time 1Password user! :)

    A lot has been said in this forum

    Brother, you ain't kiddin'. :lol:

    There are several use cases that forbid synchronizing data to a cloud environment. 1Password is not an enterprise-level password manager...

    There are a few such use-cases, yes. But I have to disagree with you about the enterprise statement. 1Password Business was literally explicitly designed with Enterprise-level customers/users in mind, at every level. I wish I could share with you how many times we've had potential enterprise users write to us via email and begin with something on the order of what I think you're saying here: "this looks great, but we can't use cloud storage," only to wind up explaining to them what we've put in place to safeguard their data "in the cloud," and have them ultimate say something at the end of it all like "thanks for explaining it to us and changing our minds on this." Unfortunately, privacy dictates I not reveal any particular Enterprise users unless they've given us explicit authorization to do so in advance. Fortunately, a few intrepid firms have done just that, so definitely have a look there and let us know if you have any questions. Bottom line, though, although both individuals and especially CISO-types have been trained to distrust and avoid "the cloud" over time, as with many other things "the cloud" refers to such a large range of things as to be difficult to generalize about. If you're interested in what makes our own solution secure, I invite you to read our 1password.com security white paper, and ask any questions you might have as you do so.

    But in the end it's about the end user and your tools that he or she can use. Not about the technological superiority.

    You've actually formally articulated one of the prime animating principles we use to guide our decision-making here. We're exceptionally thankful for folks like you who saw years ago what we were as well as could become, and jumped on board early. But the tech-savvy user of the early years is a lot different than the people who are starting to come to the concept of password management today. And those newer users are, by and large, a lot less interested in ultimate flexibility and maximum options than they are in a dependable solution that (to shamelessly hork from Steve Jobs) "just works." Retaining every option under the sun for file storage, transfer, sync and various other potential user-adjustable aspect of 1Password only clutters the UI and increases the likelihood of incompatibilities and bugs. We are always not just ready but eager to hear suggestions, especially from those who know what they're doing when it comes to this stuff. But we think our position as a leading password management solution for both enterprise and personal use speaks for itself in terms of having made "the right decisions."

    Feel free to drop by anytime if you have questions or suggestions for us, we're always here (OK, maybe we sleep occasionally ;) ). Cheers! :)

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