Concerns About 1P 8 for Mac from a Web and Software Developer

alexclst

So I briefly tried 1P 8 and then noped right back to 1P 7. Here are some of my concerns, I hope they are fixed before general public release:

1. Mini. This is how I use 1P daily. Seems that 1P Mini has been reduced to a search field. Fine, I guess. May be nice. But that I cannot change its keyboard shortcut. I mean, with 1P 7 I use a 2-key shortcut that is deeply engrained in my memory and prime at my keyboard alongside other key system shortcuts. You have to allow us to "import" that into 1P 8. Such customizations is critical on macOS. Also, does Mini require the menubar option be shown? Why is that? I don't show 1P 7 there because the keyboard shortcut is all I need on my desktop with 2 large displays. All that considered, it was in my testing nearly impossible to just bring up Mini from any app.
2. Safari. Why require a separate app again, like was needed in the past and for Chrome? And it seems that it was not sensitive to showing logins for sites I am on like all 1P versions of the past did. Why? Will this be fixed? While the search is great for straight-up use, 1P in browser must be able to surface what it thinks will be needed most. Does it, too, need to be in the (about to be ever weirder, thanks Apple, but that is another issue not for you all) status bar? Because I also don't show it in 1P 7 given the keyboard being how I invoke 1P.
3. Biometry. I use my Apple Watch multiple times a day to unlock 1P. In 1P 8 Mini the main 1P window always had to come up, and then me click a button, to trigger it. In 1P 7 Mini it just initiates the biometry itself. Why is this so much more user-intensive now? This, too, must be just as simple as it is today. Unlocking the main window was equally button-heavy. This is just untenably annoying.
4. Electron. I mean, really, maybe it can be made to look more like the existing macOS app and other Mac apps. But that is way too heavy for a password manager. Please reconsider and go back to Cocoa. Maybe I'm needlessly harsh on this point. But given my others, this is a compounded concern. I use VS Code almost daily. I've grown used to it. That is Electron. But one of the main reasons I use 1P is its nativeness. Regardless the tech underneath, 1P 8 does not feel native. This is a serious disappointment.
5. Preferences. As I alluded to above, all existing 1P 7 preferences must be present in 1P 8. I have 1P set up how it works best for me. Not just keyboard shortcuts being all custom, but nearly every preference I likely have tweaked at one time or another. These must stay customizable. All of them.

I truly am sorry if this feels harsh. As 1P support staff may know, I post here often with questions and answers. I've used 1P since it used the Mac OS X keychain for storage and now use Families. I write software (web, iOS, Mac, etc.) and manage websites for organizations for a living, so have some idea of what feedback should be, but also how critical my password manager is in my line of work. It and its speed and stability are critical. 1P 8 truly saddens me and makes me wonder if my longtime support of you all was misplaced years ago until now.

I am more than willing to continue this conversation here or in another venue. But I will not be trying 1P 8 again until it is finalized. This is unlike me, as I have used 1P betas in the late-summers for years. Kind of feel it is a role I as another developer should play. By general public release, I sincerely hope for all of us that my concerns, and the many concerns expressed by others here, are taken seriously. Or that you do as Apple themselves are with iOS and keep 1P 7 fully supported and getting updates even after 1P 8 ships.

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1Password Version: Not Provided
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: Not Provided

chadseld

Thank you for your honest feedback. Many of the issues you mention are expected to be addressed. But some, like the number and kind of preferences will be different in version 8.

1Password 8 represents a ground-up rewrite for us, one in which we have gotten serious about sharing core functionality between all platforms (Mac, iOS, Linux, Windows, Android). Another aspect of this goal was a more unified UI design between platforms. Originally, we were writing the Mac version in Apple's new SwiftUI framework instead of Electron. I think if we had continued along that path, many of these same issues would still be present - because it's a new code base, there are a lot of parts missing, and a lot of parts without polish.

Mini is a good example where we lost our way a bit with version 7, and many saw it as a downgrade from version 6. I can tell you that the team working on mini v8 (now named Quick Access) is all about user experience, user testing, optimizing navigation flows, etc... It's a rethink of what 1Password mini should be. And it will be better to use. It's just in a _ very early_ form right now.

FCNV

@chadseld

Do you all have any sense of openness to feedback or just a firm belief that what you created is perfect. I just imagine your leadership sending internal memos right now saying "HOLD THE LINE!!!!"

This part rings significant to me: "1Password 8 represents a ground-up rewrite for us, one in which we have gotten serious about sharing core functionality between all platforms (Mac, iOS, Linux, Windows, Android)."

You're basically explaining why this makes it easier for your team but not better for users. Before you respond touting feature parity across platforms, at least acknowledge that a lot (probably most) aren't using 1Password across 3+ platforms. Secondly, you ignore the single biggest consensus feedback so far which is that folks want the app to feel native to each platform they use.

I hope you will read and think about this feedback.

alexclst

Thanks for your response, @chadseld. I've seen in other threads how some things (like user-definable keyboard shortcuts) are coming. Hopefully they, and many of my other concerns, much of which are real usability headaches right now, are addressed by the official release. My feedback was based on just minutes of use where I saw these serious usability issues. I now have both 1P 7 and 8 installed, though rarely use 1P 8 for now, and keep it quit (well, one or the other is quit while the other is running).

I want to like 1P 8, because of my longtime use of 1P, the importance of things like multiple content types and shared vaults (otherwise, if I just stored passwords just for myself, I may have looked into moving to the Apple-built alternative coming in macOS 12 anyway, if just for curiosity), and simply that my data is already in it. But we'll see what I feel like as the early access alpha continues to beta and then general official release. My feeling is that if Quick Access' keyboard shortcut can be customized (as well as work sans menu option being visible), the Apple Watch unlock be made as convenient as it is right now in 1P 7 (no extra click, need of the full window), and the Safari extension works well (I could barely get it to unlock consistently or show my data) I will probably try living on the 1P 8 preview for a few days. But still, this direction of 1P makes me about if an alternative may be needed. Hopefully it won't, honestly,

StevenBedrick

Just out of curiosity, @chadseld, why does the product management team think that users want "a more unified UI design between platforms"? Mac users use Macs because we like how Macs work and want to use software that feels like Mac software (Google the phrase "Mac-assed Mac Apps" to see what I'm talking about); presumably, Windows/Android/etc. users feel similarly about software they run on their own platforms. So what (user-oriented) goal is achieved by having a more unified UI design?

user12345

I agree with @StevenBedrick. Mac users do not want a unified UI design between platforms. We want a Mac specific UI design that feels right at home on out Macs. That's why I have been a 1Password user since 2007.

All Electron does is make it easier to manage the code on your end. It does nothing to improve the experience for end users, in fact it's degrading it. Web based apps never feel native. I can't believe that a company that once took great pride in their great Mac software has made the decision to use Electron.

Unfortunately there aren't really any other Mac native password managers available, but now that 1Password won't be one anymore it will lose that edge over the competition which is unfortunate.

I'd much rather see you do some tweaks to 1Password 7 and keep it around for another year or two instead of forcing Electron on us.

austin

I’m going to disagree with the hate on Electron. I am not happy about some of the missing features that I’ve seen in the ~20 minutes that I’ve been using 1Password 8 for Mac, and the onboarding experience was one of the least pleasant 1Password onboarding experiences that I’ve had, but I don’t see that as a problem specific to Electron.

I will say that I want 1Password to be able to bring features to all versions relatively quickly, and if Electron makes that easier, so much the better. I don’t recall what it was, but there was a feature that I was looking at available on the web that made no sense to be missing from 1Password for the Mac.

There are a few things that I would suggest:

• Hit Command minus (⌘-) and reduce the default font size. That made things a bit nicer on my 13" M1 Air. To the 1Password team: ideally, you should disable font resizing, but have font spacing / sizing UI defaults available (e.g., compact, normal, etc.).
• Restore Command 0 as the “all accounts” view.
• Bring back the “all vaults” inclusion filter at the 1Password application level. Do not make me configure this on each browser. Ideally, when the browser extension is in “sync” mode, all options should be delegated to the application.
• Improve the onboarding experience when you have multiple ~vaults~ accounts.
• Do not have the full application open with Command backslash; like @alexcist I interact through 1Password 99% of the time through mini (most of my accounts are created and passwords set already) and I already have two other programs sitting on the spacebar (Command space is spotlight; Option space is Alfred). I want Quick Access to be at Command backslash.
• Quick Access shouldn’t be a blank slate. It needs to be context aware, and ideally give me suggestions the way that mini did. You say it was a “lost direction”, but some of us find it extremely useful. Quick Access could be that, but it should be suggesting something relative to the context I’m in. It would be even better if it could be more context aware than mini and see what application you’re in (it would be so great to be able to have mini suggest application-specific passwords the way that iOS password integration has enabled).

I’m sure I’m going to run into things that are going to annoy me more, but I want feature parity between 1Password CLI, 1Password for Mac, 1Password for Web, and if it takes a Rust backend with Electron to do that…so be it. But please don’t lose sight of the features that customers love. The less time I am in 1Password the application, the better, because then it’s doing its job and I just don’t have to think.

alexclst

@austin I agree with you that Quick Access should be more aware than Mini. But at minimum it needs to be aware, which it currently isn't at all. No sense of what website I'm on. Much of what you say I do agree with, and even the Electron bit I can come to agree with, heck, for my programming work I spend lots of time in VS Code, which uses Electron. Mini can already be app-aware, just FYI. Use something like this in the URL field: app://com.apple.Terminal. "app://" along with the bundle ID of an application enables Mini to be context aware of apps. @chadseld, I hope Quick Access stays with this amount of awareness, once it gains any awareness.

austin

"app://" along with the bundle ID of an application enables Mini to be context aware of apps

You learn something new every day.

austin

@chadseld I’ve been using 1Password since the very beginning. If the replacement for mini, Quick Access, isn’t as context-aware as mini is right now, then 1Password 8 is not ready for public release.

Understand that those of us who have used 1Password since v1 some 15 years ago have baked ⌘\ into our brains of “this is how you fill this webpage with the data that belongs to it”. Not ⌘⬆️Space. We have also baked ⌘⬆️\ as the way to “present a searchable suggestion list”.

That’s part of what is missing, and why we’re deeply skeptical of the user experience comment for Quick Access. At the moment, 1Password 8 is a giant leap backwards for those of us with you since the beginning, in a way that 1Password 7 and 1Password mini were not. They weren’t perfect, but they’re better than what we are seeing right now.

You can get there, but please don’t take until 8.5 to get there. I’m all in on 1Password—you offer a value proposition that cannot be matched by anyone else. But I won’t be upgrading anyone else on my family plan from 1Password 7 until I know that it isn’t a functionality and usability regression.

kcastill

why does the product management team think that users want "a more unified UI design between platforms

My guess: once they opened up 1p for Windows and 1p for Teams, the revenue from that dwarfs the revenue from Mac-specific/only users.

So cater to the small, passionate, historical, vocal minority....or go/stay where the money is? From a business perspective...it'd be silly to do the former at the expense of the "greater good".

I've used 1p for over a decade and am Apple-only. I don't like the changes/direction I'm seeing in v8 at all...but I do understand the (likely) business case.

FCNV

@kcastill

I understand the business incentives but the moment Microsoft decides to bundle in a password manager with their suite, 1Password's enterprise ambitions are done. That is unless somebody purchases them, which I think is their main goal.

kcastill

@FCNV oh, I agree. Especially w/the looking to be acqui-hired and give Accel an exit part.

faubt

Microsoft has got nothing on 1Password. We're clearly passionate about the changes here, but this is a silly comparison, like comparing 1Password and iCloud keychain.

Truth is, Microsoft has had a cloud-synced integrated password manager since Windows 8, when you started to be able to sign into Windows with a Microsoft Account. It ONLY works with Windows itself or Edge. Windows Store apps can integrate themselves into the manager as well, but those are very few and far between. Microsoft has started surfacing this password manager more by making it visible in the Microsoft Authenticator app, but there's no Mac or web version (yet).

1Password stores more than just simple passwords. It's also a OTP generator for example. You can assign multiple websites to a single entry for site recognition, something both Microsoft and Apple can't currently do. 1Password can store passports, driver's licences, and a whole bunch of other things that, sure, you COULD stick into a OneNote notebook, but it's nowhere near secure. This isn't a primary business for these companies, I doubt they will Sherlock 1Password's supported platform list of functionality any time soon.

Look, I joined this forum to bang the Electron Sucks drum. But Microsoft and Apple are not truly threatening competitors here. For once.

PS, I don't know why people keep harping on "enterprise is driving these changes". Maybe that revenue is really growing, but oh boy does the enterprise hate change more than all of you combined. Do you still need to encounter Windows XP in your day to day job? No? Well, I have clients who do. 🤦🏼‍♂️

faubt

Microsoft has got nothing on 1Password. We're clearly passionate about the changes here, but this is a silly comparison, like comparing 1Password and iCloud keychain.

Truth is, Microsoft has had a cloud-synced integrated password manager since Windows 8, when you started to be able to sign into Windows with a Microsoft Account. It ONLY works with Windows itself or Edge. Windows Store apps can integrate themselves into the manager as well, but those are very few and far between. Microsoft has started surfacing this password manager more by making it visible in the Microsoft Authenticator app, but there's no Mac or web version (yet).

1Password stores more than just simple passwords. It's also a OTP generator for example. You can assign multiple websites to a single entry for site recognition, something both Microsoft and Apple can't currently do. 1Password can store passports, driver's licences, and a whole bunch of other things that, sure, you COULD stick into a OneNote notebook, but it's nowhere near secure. This isn't a primary business for these companies, I doubt they will Sherlock 1Password's supported platform list of functionality any time soon.

Look, I joined this forum to bang the Electron Sucks drum.

PS, I don't know why people keep harping on "enterprise is driving these changes". Maybe that revenue is, but oh boy does the enterprise hate change more than all of you combined. Do you still need to encounter Windows XP in your day to day job? No? Well, I have clients who do.

FCNV

So really they are looking at Microsoft, Sales Force, or maybe Dropbox as an acquisition option.

alexclst

@chadseld, you know, another point re my original comment on biometry especially regarding Quick Access: Not only does the main app window open to manually allow clicking the biometry button, which is annoying enough. It does a few other things that should be fixed:

1. It stays open, instead of hiding again and revealing Quick Access. This is where it is a massive step back from Mini. Mini automatically initiates biometry, and does it all within itself, to leave the main app "closed" and take you where you want to be
2. By using the main app, it puts 1P 8 in the "recently used" apps in the Dock. This is also annoying, and a reason to not require that the main app get invoked at all.

Another thing I realize Quick Access lacks: Generating passwords. I sometimes need passwords for things that are not in a web browser. For example, ssh key passphrase, GPG key passphrase, passwords for other apps, example strong passwords, etc. Mini gives easy access to the password generator for these uses. I can't seem to get to this in Quick Access, which seems designed only for retrieval, not as easily for creation.

alexclst

@chadseld, so as you can maybe tell, I'm experimentally running 1P 8 now, with 1P 7 still installed but fully quit, which is where my greater feedback stems from. Another point that I believe is Electron-based, but maybe can be fixed: A lot of the time when opening the main app the "app menu" (the one that is the app name just right of the  menu) is stuck highlighted until I click it open and closed. I think this is largely whenever I hide or quit the app using the keyboard shortcuts. Again, I'm guessing this is Electron weirdness (I think I've seen this before in Electron apps), but just calling attention to it. Hopefully it can be fixed. At any rate VS Code does not have the same issue.

roustem

Thank you for the great feedback, @austin!

Resizing the font with ⌘+ and ⌘- is actually my favourite part, I am able to adjust how much information is shown on the screen. And so often we had older customers who wanted to see a bigger font.

I also love what you said here:

I’m sure I’m going to run into things that are going to annoy me more, but I want feature parity between 1Password CLI, 1Password for Mac, 1Password for Web, and if it takes a Rust backend with Electron to do that…so be it. But please don’t lose sight of the features that customers love. The less time I am in 1Password the application, the better, because then it’s doing its job and I just don’t have to think.

I completely agree and it even came up in our internal discussions earlier today. Most of the time, the main 1Password app is closed or hidden, it is not something where we spend a lot of time. The 1Password mini (aka, Quick Access) and the browser extension are the two components used most often.

claus

@roustem

I completely agree and it even came up in our internal discussions earlier today. Most of the time, the main 1Password app is closed or hidden, it is not something where we spend a lot of time. The 1Password mini (aka, Quick Access) and the browser extension are the two components used most often. <

Well, I use 1Pwd not only for web passwords. I use it for many other informations (notes, accounts, server, plan routers...). The app is the main tool to collect and update important infos & details.

tomjepp

I completely agree and it even came up in our internal discussions earlier today. Most of the time, the main 1Password app is closed or hidden, it is not something where we spend a lot of time. The 1Password mini (aka, Quick Access) and the browser extension are the two components used most often.

It would be helpful to get a roadmap or some examples of how Quick Access is intended to end up, because at the moment it's really lacking in functionality compared to 1Password Mini and this is one of my biggest issues with 1Password 8 currently. I use 1Password Mini as my main interaction point with 1Password - I rarely actually open the app. I do most of my editing in Mini, and currently that doesn't feel like a workflow that is allowed for with Quick Access.

jwells1989

Well, I use 1Pwd not only for web passwords. I use it for many other informations (notes, accounts, server, plan routers...). The app is the main tool to collect and update important infos & details

Indeed, use cases vary between users a fair bit I'd imagine.

For me, 1Password serves as a store for "high priority" items I'm more likely to need regardless of what device I have on hand — key logins, software licenses, passport, etc while more pedestrian web account info is handled by iCloud Keychain. In my case the main app is the primary interface, so it's quite noticeable when random bits of jank, reduced smoothness in animation, alien widget behaviors, etc are introduced.

roustem

For me, 1Password serves as a store for "high priority" items I'm more likely to need regardless of what device I have on hand — key logins, software licenses, passport, etc while more pedestrian web account info is handled by iCloud Keychain. In my case the main app is the primary interface, so it's quite noticeable when random bits of jank, reduced smoothness in animation, alien widget behaviors, etc are introduced.

I agree about the high priority items and with the improvements in 1Password 8 I started using it for more documents and attachments. I even recently added my kid's report card to a vault because I know we will always be able to find it there and it is available to the entire family:

At the same time, at least in my experience, this is still less that 10% of what 1Password is used for day-todau: effortlessly signing into websites, filling credit cards, copying passwords.

austin

Resizing the font with ⌘+ and ⌘- is actually my favourite part, I am able to adjust how much information is shown on the screen. And so often we had older customers who wanted to see a bigger font.

Accessibility is important, absolutely. I don’t think that interface resizing (really, font resizing in a webpage) should be bound to keystrokes, and rebinding ⌘0 to “normal size” instead of the "all vaults" (which would I guess be a “default” collections view) is a breaking change. I can just see my mom accidentally hitting ⌘- a few times and saying the fonts are too small now.

Make it visible, but not on the keyboard. IMO.

gussic

@roustem

I also love what you said here:

Can I ask, seriously, what would it take for you reverse course and dump electron from the front end of the Mac App? I hate it, just even knowing it's on my computer is a worry for me.

There seems to be a lot of backlash about this decision, backlash that wasn't present in the same way for 1P7. Please don't go down this path, we are literally begging you.

jaysee_au

Without wanting to be too snarky, I think this says it all. 😢

Less flippantly, I'm all for a ground up re-write, but this feels clunky. I'm not even necessarily judging it on the underlying tech here, just the end result. This feels like an Apple like "re-imagine" (that's also clunky) like when Apple went from iMovie 6 -> 7 or Final Cut Pro 7 -> X. Key features ppl relied on were missing for years until Apple restored them to the new design. I really hope that AgileBits continue to support v7 for a few years, as I won't be upgrading to this version any time soon.

Features-missing-wise, I miss being able to have a local vault as my primary vault, with a single memorable password used only for local 1Password unlock, and then have my multiple cloud vaults all added to the setup each with a SUPER complex password that I can't even remember! By adding them after my non-synced local vault it means I can have a super secure cloud passwords while maintaining a memorable one for my local devices (which are only accessible after I decrypt my FileVault and log into my Mac... etc.).

Also, pressing Option no longer seems to reveal passwords when 1Password 8 is foremost app. 🤔

Mini is a good example where we lost our way a bit with version 7, and many saw it as a downgrade from version 6.

I was shocked to hear someone (@chadseld) from 1Password above finally admit that "Mini" in v7 was a regression from v6. All through that beta season we all got told to get over it as the new design was way better and we didn't get it. So as nice as it is to hear this admission, I gotta say it doesn't feel like the lessons have been learned yet. Mini in v6 was great. How about you start there instead of trying to reimagine it again?? 😩

FCNV

@gussic

Probably $200 million from another VC company that wants good apps. Unfortunately, @roustem hands are tied. He needs an enterprise app that is cheap to make.

m4rkw

“ I can tell you that the team working on mini v8 (now named Quick Access) is all about user experience”

Electron is the opposite of a good user experience. I think you’re going to lose a lot of good customers over this decision.

claus

@m4rkw : Thats the price (users switching to another app) Agile has to pay. And pays. It is a parts of this kind of business.
In one year nobody will complain about it, it will be history. We see it with so many other apps where similar discussion popped up - done. Like with Fantastical.
For me the chapter 1Pwd is done. I will switch, sooner or later, to a new app or, depending how it works and "feels", Apples new KeyChain/Password function.
Sad that I have no "standalone" licence of v7 (and is not available anymore).

m4rkw

Yeah, it's really silly that right now (1password7) they have a great product that people would be happy to continue to pay for, and yet they want to go in this other crazy direction that people don't want.

I bought my standalone license in 2018, if the company would assure me that 1password7 maintenance will continue for another 5 years I'd happily switch to a subscription even without using their cloud service. Sure I bought a license for v7 and some people would think that entitles them to use it forever, but I appreciate that software requires maintenance and I'm happy to continue to pay in order to keep it going.

Please do let me know if you find a good alternative.

roustem

Can I ask, seriously, what would it take for you reverse course and dump electron from the front end of the Mac App? I hate it, just even knowing it's on my computer is a worry for me.

What exactly is worrying you, @gussic ? I see that fear all over the forums and Reddit and I understand some of it but I don't get the fear of web-based technologies (which we are using in 1Password 8 only to render the UI — networking, encryption, database, biometrics, system services, etc are all done in Rust and Swift). We actually had a web-based implementation of the item detail view back in 1Password 2 and it many ways I liked it more than the rigid UI we used later.

Many of the Apple's own apps are built with web technologies. There are many Mac apps but how many of them are truly great? The list is quite short and we can probably count them on one hand: OmniGroup, Panic, Fantastical. Just making an app "native" will not make it great and it is also possible to build a great user experience with web technologies.