ATP with Spot-On Critique of 1Password 8
Interesting listen from ATP who outlines a lot of the high-level gripes and specific bugs and jankiness of 1Password 8. I think they are pretty fair and constructive with their criticisms:
The discussion begins at around 45 minutes in.
1Password Version: Not Provided
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: Not Provided
Comments
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Thanks for mentioning this.
Have not listened to ATP in a long time, but will give this section a try.
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I listened to the episode and I have some quibbles with their take. They are fortunate to primarily live in the Apple ecosystem, so they can have a more militant opinion on how apps should look and behave on Apple's platforms. But, I am one of the unicorns where my day job is 90% Linux and 10% Windows. At home, I use a Mac or Linux VM, iPhone, and an iPad. I, for one, am looking forward to 1Password looking and behaving the same on all of these platforms.
1Password 7 was a great app and I am very quickly starting to like 1Password 8 on the Mac. The Quick Access feature is awesome. There are some rough edges and absent features in the Early Access, but we should probably hold judgement until 1Password 8 is officially released.
I have tried a bunch of Catalyst apps and wholly disagree that 1Password should be ported using it. I am sure that 1Password would make one of the better Catalyst apps out there. But, based on my anecdotal sampling of Catalyst apps, the proverbial winds are not blowing in the right direction for that technology.
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Calling their commentary "more militant" seems disingenuous.
I think they made several valid points, firstly that 1Password is shifting issues with quality and consistency on the users so that their own development is easier/cheaper (despite having 400+ employees). The second thing is questioning what percentage of the user base is as multi-platform as you. I think Siracusa did a great job playing devil's advocate for Electron development but also conceded that just because there are examples of good Electron apps doesn't mean that 1Password 8 is one of them. I tend to agree.
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@FCNV I apologize, “militant” was a poor choice of word. I should have said something “rigid standard”, which I don’t see as a bad thing. They are great evangelists for Apple’s platforms and I appreciate their opinions. I think there are many ways to make good Mac apps. I just think 1Password should be given the chance to prove themselves before the harsh judgements are circulated.
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What makes a good Mac app, as opposed to just a good app, is its UI. Has AgileBits committed anywhere to fixing the dozens of unacceptable UI elements in 1Password 8? The neutered menubar, the "menu" button that can't extend its menu beyond the application window, the unmovable preferences window that even has a Windows close button?
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I don't think any of them argued that other platforms (Android, Linux, Windows) shouldn't have equally-featured, quality apps. They were arguing that compromising the quality of the Mac app to fulfill those goals is bad because it shifts the problem to users when 1Password has the financial and engineering resources to still develop a native Mac app alongside the new stuff for other platforms. I don't find that to be "rigid" at all. They outline the pros and cons of each API (AppKit, Catalyst, Electron) and ultimately have more valid reasons to keep it on AppKit.
1Password made a business decision, which is their right to make, but there are consequences to those decisions for many Mac users.
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despite having 400+ employees
I'm sorry what? They have 400 employees and can't make 3 native apps? Are you freaking serious?
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They took VC money.
Which explains everything: the absurd growth in their head count, the diminishing concern for their original Mac user customer base, and the adoption of things like Electron that place business efficiency concerns above user experience.
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Haven't listened to them in a long while (and now know again why), but that Electron statement from Marco Arment did resonate with me:
1Password is using more resources on devices of their users so that their own development is easier/cheaper (despite having 400+ employees)
(rough quotation)
I also like that apparently the 1Password founders were in the ATP chat during the recording, showing that they care.
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I mean, the care about the bomb they've set off on themselves amongst their Mac user base. If they actually cared about producing a proper Mac experience for their Mac customers none of this would be going on.
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the adoption of things like Electron that place business efficiency concerns above user experience.
We're screaming in an empty box. They're on the beta already, they aren't avoiding a rollout because of a few pissed off mac users. The latest update has altered nothing but some memory fixes. Just switch to elpass and enjoy that native performance and UI while 1P chases the enterprise users.
They can join Dropbox and Box with companies who chased enterprise while ignoring who actually pays for their products.
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I mean, the founders were in the ATP chat, but they weren't engaging. Probably just gathering reasons not to sponsor ATP again.
Yeah, they aren't back-tracking anything. They released pre-alpha quality software as the 1Password 8 beta and intend to launch it in September. So definitely not developing a native app and most likely not doing anything to make the Electron app nicer to use.
But then ask yourself the same question? Would you be willing to do that for $100 million?
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Of course I'd do it, lets be real here, we all would sell out to electron for 100 million.
It doesn't mean we can't be pissed someone else did it. I don't envy them, to be that rich and all you have to do is switch to electron? please. EASY decision.
The point is though I have A LOT of options for an electron passed password manager and they're all cheaper. I stuck with 1P because they were worth the price.
So the thing is, I didn't get a cut of that 100m, nor am I short of others that are either free (Bitwarden) or cheaper (enpass, lastpass, elpass) and now some are cheaper AND better (elpass).
So 1P is in a tricky decision, is their significant reducing in development resources going to translate to lower pricing? Or are they still going to charge a premium and move to electron? I'm guessing we all know the answer which means they know my answer to this.
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Fundamentally, the issue is that 1Password means a lot to a lot of us. And they have shown that we as their Mac users don't mean anything to them. That hurts. They clearly don't care. They haven't made even one statement about fixing the glaring UI problems with this new release.
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They have made comments, it's just that they're SO far into development they only have three choices.
- Do nothing and piss of mac customers
- drastically alter the main app, pissing off windows / linux customers
- create a native app just for mac, further angering windows and linux customers
Dropping this for a native app isn't in the cards. BEST case for us they continue to develop the swift UI app they have hidden away internally. However, they won't do it as it'd admit they don't care to enterprise customers about windows which is a massive mistake.
They've dug themselves into a hole and there's no way out. We as mac users lose and we need to accept that. However I'm not done venting so I'm going to hang around the forums and yell like a child because I've paid for a year and I'm going to get my money worth :)
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I agree, @blankspace.
The only choice is to leave 1Pwd.
I was hoping that AgileBits would understand what is happening here and many Mac users leave this boat.
We saw Apple changing their plan with Safari, there was OmniGroup listening to the feedback of their users/stopped to continue on developing the actual preview version and started a complete redesign of Omnifocus. AgileBits does not have the courage to do this, still knowing that v8 goes to the wrong direction.0 -
The ATP podcast was fascinating. I also find it interesting that what I got from it is much less negative than most people posting here.
First, they said that (apart from problems common in beta software) the Electron version on the Mac was OK. The issue, they said, is that the old app was great, and so the Electron version suffers badly by comparison.
Second, they discussed what options AgileBits had for creating a native app. There were three possibilities, each with pros and cons. AgileBits did try one option along with Electron. But it seems that this option, Swift UI, had not yet reached the stage of development by Apple that would allow a really good app and they decided to abandon this approach (I don't think that @blankspace 's interpretation for why this was abandoned is correct).
And don't forget that the back-end is now common to all platforms, and has not, as far as I am aware, received any significant criticism. It is the front-end that varies and is now Electron on Linux, Windows, and Mac. Once they decided that SwiftUI was not going to work on the Mac at present, I think they had to go forward with Electron on the Mac. They could have tried another approach, but it did make sense to leave that until they saw how people felt about Electron. They know now, and I am hoping that they will both release the Electron version (which no-one running 1PW will be forced to use for at least a year, maybe longer) and work on a native front-end for later release. Of course the might also decide that attempting a native front-end is not worth the cost, we don't know.
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@danco This is the thing, it's death by 1000 paper cuts. It's not one thing that makes the 1p8 app bad. In fact to your comment it's a good app. It's just the 1p7 app is so good it makes 1p8 bad by comparison. I think I could nitpick hundreds of items that most people will roll their eyes about. The reality is all those issues end up being an extremely frustrating experience we're not used to.
I think the fact that the app is incredibly unfinished is also a massive issue since they claim to release in september. Like I can't even modify vaults on the app. I can't share, add or remove anyone. I have to go to the web UI to do that. Like seriously? I can't modify shortcuts, I can't rename or delete tags, I can't, I can't, I can't is the theme of 1p8.
So is it REALLY as bad as they say? Nah, it's really not. Doesn't mean I'm not going to leave though because 1p7 is a gem and the fact that they want me to pay the same for 1p8 is a joke.
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I'm not sure that they do claim a September release. Michael Fey said that they had a self-imposed release date of September, but that was really in relation to decisions that had to be made back in February. True, no-one has explicitly said that the release date will be pushed back, but someone - I think it was @roustem - has said that it will not be released until it is ready. Plainly it is not ready yet.
I suppose we all need to think about leaving, but there's no need to be in a hurry. I renewed my subscription back in May, so I don't need to consider leaving until May 2022. Maybe 1PW7 will still run on the successor to Monterey, maybe 1PW8 will be changed enough that it becomes great again. Now there's a slogan for you - Make 1Password Great Again.
Basically, I am just more hopeful than many of you, perhaps because from the start I felt the Early Access was worth keeping an eye on but not yet worth running for me. Remember that Roustem and Dave were Mac enthusiasts from the start. I don't think they've lost that enthusiasm, but they may have lost their way as they seem to feel the current 1PW8 is good enough
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They keep describing this new app, which doesn’t even attempt to be Mac-like, as “the best experience ever”. Either they’re lying to us or they were never really Mac enthusiasts.
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Thanks again for the feedback everyone.
1Password for Mac was written/rewritten from scratch 3 times. Every time we did this we had huge issues. Our last rewrite was 1Password 4 and we had to keep it in beta for over 9 months to make sure the official release is great.
A lot of things changed since 1Password 4. We added 1Password service but the client apps were built for the pre-service era and did not allow us to build the features we want. We needed a new foundation. In addition to that, we (and our customers) were dying by a thousand cuts because of so many differences between the platforms. My items would sort one way on Mac and in a different way on Windows, search results would be different, etc.
We started working on the new core of 1Password over two years ago. This is the most expensive 1Password rewrite in our history. We didn't corners. I think it is worth because we can already see how it allows us to rethink how we can make the product better and add the features we dreamt of for years. I can finally add file attachments to any item, item editing does not suck anymore, the "Security Questions" 🤘. The macOS integration is there: TouchID, Launch Services, global keyboard shortcuts. Because of the core that is written in Rust and can call out to Swift when needed, we can take full advantage of all macOS features.
I said this earlier and you may certainly choose to not believe me, there is nothing I can do about it 🤷♂️ — we are Mac users and we are trying to build best Mac app. It may not be fitting all the tight restrictions of hardcore Mac users but I truly believe it is going to be a great app. "Think Different" was once something that was defining the Mac platform and I feel that we deserve at least a bit of benefit of the doubt after building this product for over 15 years.
Today we are just one week into public release and there is still quite a bit of work remaining. I hope you will stick with us and give us a chance. Not sure if it is going to take nine months like last time but we got more feedback in one week than we had in months before the Mac Early Access and a lot of it was really helpful.
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There should not be any regressions for an app written in 2021 that is the "most expensive 1Password rewrite in history." Right now, there is an overwhelming number of regressions for users and very few improvements. The major improvements seem to be for you, not your customers.
If you were a man of your word, you will take as long as required to make 1Password 8 good. Whether that is 6 months or a year. The fact you said, "Not sure if it is going to take nine months like last time..." tells me you have another "self-imposed" ship date in your head and I hope that if you decide to release a half-baked version of it this fall that the community of users and pundits takes you and this company to task in a way that makes this last week's uproar look tame.
From your current assessment, how close do you think you are?
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@FCNV I think what @roustem is saying is the backend was the most expensive rewrite in history and honestly I believe him. Why would he lie about that? Not to mention the changes he’s describing are actually technically impressive. The fact that the core is written in rust and not C# anymore (IIRC) is that memory dumps and other attacks will be much more difficult as rust is much lower level. So is 1P8 more secure? I have no idea but I’m guessing yes, extremely secure. I have no doubt it’s probably faster as well. They keep mentioning the backend because they most likely are extremely proud of it and the front end is getting all the attention.
Honestly @roustem, you’re going to hear me s*** on your front end a lot in the next few months. However I’m more than happy to hear you discuss / read the technical hurdles and challenges you had rewriting the backend. I know backends never get the recognition they deserve, clearly it was a ton of work so show it off. I don’t think anyone here is upset about the backend and it sounds very interesting to hear the process you took. It can be a small popcorn break while we come up with unique ways to vent about how much we hate the padding in the side bar.
Not sure if it is going to take nine months like last time
So I’m guessing September isn’t going to be the launch for macOS version so small victory in the sense the app has time to get better.
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@roustem said elsewhere that the final version will likely not be released this year, certainly not in September. As for missing features, yeah, there are issues open for all of them. Everything takes longer than you expect. :) The self imposed ship date has changed several times. At one point we were sure we’d be shipping in 2020.
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