1Password 8 for Mac is here - but still not a macOS application
I remember bold claims around continuing the work on the beta and not releasing 1PW 8 before it looks and behaves like a real macOS application. Does this mean that this is the result of this process?
I'm sorry but it still feels and looks like a mediocre Electron app to me and far from what meets my bar. I forced myself using it for the last few months - given that I really like the SSH agent feature - but every interaction with the UI is still painful to me.
Does this mean that this is all we can expect on that end or is there hope for more progress (or even better: a change of course)?
I wish so much that I could use the SwiftUI iOS beta on my M1. "Just" add the SSH agent to it and release that - it would make me much more happy.
1Password Version: 8.7.0
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: Not Provided
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Hi @awn, thanks for letting us know your experience with this. I'll hope to outline here our current commitments as well as what you can expect from us going forward.
I'm sorry but it still feels and looks like a mediocre Electron app to me and far from what meets my bar.
It's always hard to hear this kind of feedback, but we of course respect your views.
From our perspective: we've put a ton of work into 1Password 8, and to speak candidly, we're very proud of it. Personally, I think it looks great, and feel that new features like the SSH agent you mentioned, as well as the extremely powerful Universal Autofill, make this the best 1Password release to date. We've also incorporated a lot of customer feedback along the way, including months of bug fixes, improvements, and additional features as a direct result of feedback here in the forums.
I would be remiss not to note that some features, like Universal Autofill, are actually more deeply integrated with MacOS than ever before, and offer functionality that 1Password 7 doesn't.
Does this mean that this is all we can expect on that end or is there hope for more progress (or even better: a change of course)?
Again, we feel that 1Password 8 is a great step forward. With that said, there are a number of improvements and feature requests that didn't make this general release, but which have been in the works for some time and are still coming down the pipeline. A number of those were sourced from requests by folks in the forums too. You can expect that with each subsequent release, 1Password 8 will improve, much as iterations of 1Password 7 did before it. 😃
As to the question of "a change of course": we won't rule out using other approaches for the front-end UI in the future, because we always want to work with the most advantageous tools available at any given time. We used Electron because we were able to create the best Mac app that we’ve ever had by using a hybrid approach for this current implementation. And that's what we're rolling with for the current version of 1Password. We will keep an eye on various frameworks as they evolve so that we can bring you the best experience possible, too.
Regardless of what language or framework we use, there are certain things that will always be important to us: the app needs to be secure. It needs to be performant. It needs to be intuitive and useful. It needs to look good. And while that last one is of course to some extent subjective, we're aiming for excellence in all aspects of what we provide to you.
If you ultimately don't feel that 1Password 8 is right for you, we understand. But we hope that you'll continue to give it a shot or (even better) let us know what specifically about the app you feel isn't up to your standard, so that we can continue to improve. 👍
Thanks for letting us know how you're feeling about the app so far, and I hope that this has been informative. We really do welcome your feedback on anything you think we could improve - and I hope to hear from you about the specifics. We'd love to impress you with future updates!
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@PeterG_1P thanks for the response. I don't disagree that it is a step forward in many ways - and I understand and can see how much work has gone into it (being a software engineer myself). And you and the team can be proud of a lot of things that went to it without any doubt.
It unfortunately doesn't change how I feel about 1PW 8 when interacting with it (and I happen to interact with quick access and the app UI - not the nice rust layer that drives it).I'm not a fan of the design language in general given it that takes up a lot of space and feels almost clunky to me (even though it's much better when switching to compact). But even then: There is so much space between elements everywhere but no spacing between selections for some reason:
(All lists look like that - could be intentional but it looks wrong to me)It's not new that 1PW uses a design that doesn't shy away from creating custom UI elements - 1PW 7 did that too. I didn't like it there either but got used to it over time. I really hope that something similar will happen with 1PW 8 too but are quite sure that I'll never reach a point where I like it (and I want to like the UI of software I use a lot).
It's just a bit saddening to see how much work went into something that comes very close but isn't quite there still (and I still don't like). The fact that a UI (1PW 8 iOS beta) that is very similar in terms of design - but still slightly different - feels much better, shows that it's not the design language itself and rather tiny details that make it feel off. I'll try to collect some more examples if I can and share them going forward.
I hope this response was helpful to provide some more context and I'm sorry if the initial post came across aggressive or impolite. It also seems like a lot of people are happy with it - so please feel free and ignore me if I'm the only one that isn't happy yet 😉.
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Just installed so I don’t have too much of an impression yet. Also feel design seems out of place.
Mainly element and font sizes are far larger than native apps. I understand one can zoom but I think 100% should be close to or the same as the rest of macOS and zoom would be to change such.
Also not a fan of the browser extension toolbar button being in color rather than monochrome as before.
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It's good to hear that AgileBits might use other approaches for the front end in the future.
As I understand it, they initially worked on both an Electron front-end and a native version. I think the native version was SwiftUi, but I am not sure. Anyway, the native version was dropped. I don't think we were ever told why this was. Some people may think it was just to save money, but I am sure I saw some people say that SwiftUI on the Mac was just not mature enough and that other native approaches had their own problems going forward.
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Also not a fan of the browser extension toolbar button being in color rather than monochrome as before.
Indeed. Would it be possible to add an optional monochrome variant?
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I suspect that no matter what they do, people will find something to complain about as long as it's Electron under the hood.
1PW8 may not be an AppKit application, but it is a Mac application, and people who want to fight that war ("Electron apps aren't really Mac apps!") are going to lose to the inevitable march of time.
There was a good discussion of this in the latest version of Mac Power Users in a chapter about Electron. They discussed the fact that "A Mac App" now means any of a number of different ways that apps can be built. And will be built. It will happen, and it is happening now.
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I love the new look and feel. It's a hell of a lot better than the first betas and I feel right at home with the official non-beta release. Good job, 1P team.
Whether it looks like "a real Mac app" or a Electron app, I could not care less.
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I'm torn. The developer in me is excited about the technology used, i. e. a combination of a rust core with a multi platform independent UI. The user side is much more difficult. From early access to the current version it was a long, bumpy road. Some of the most glaring issues like the fake modal used instead of a preferences window were fixed but many issues still exist.
- modals/dialogs: Several dialogs still use the fake, totally out of place X top right of the window. Whenever I see such a dialog it feels like someone is shouting "we don't care about your OS and its UI".
- icons: Although beautifully crafted they just feel a bit out of place on macOS.
- menus: mix of real and custom menus. Context menus in the item list are native whereas all dropdown menus look totally different.
- scroll: no elastic scroll with bounce effect.
- item counts: instead of using the quite common way of putting the item count right next to the item like it was in some of the nightlys we now have an item count at the bottom of the list - one has to scroll to get the count...almost unusable. Another item count is hidden behind the sort icon.
- search: instead of just searching for what was entered and showing the results within the list it now gets really messy. Even if I ignore that it still does not support substring search, something 1PW7 had since the beginning, it's now filtering/sorting by relevance and shows only a part of the results in a dropdown instead of inline. One has to press CMD+Enter to get all results inline. This is a show stopper. You've added filtering but that's hidden in the menus and it doesn't replace search. At least within the German translation search and Find/Filter use the same translation - "Suchen".
- fonts and spacing: in compact mode it's quite close to macOS but it still has some subtile differences that make it feel strange
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@viswiz I agree with most of your comments - good criticisms of style and substance. I'm wondering when you and I will be kicked off the forum. :-)
The gold standard for Mac apps used to mean consistency for the user. As a user, I knew everything would behave the same in any app on the OS. The developer had the burden: conform to the standards of the platform. In exchange, the developer and user would automatically get all of the OS-provided behavior and features. (Accessibility, appearance and widget chrome, scrolling, ... how much time is AgileBits now spending to re-implement those basics?)
Mostly it's a broad vague sadness, rather than specific anger towards AgileBits. Apple themselves eroded UI/UX consistency.
My disappointment is that AgileBits was a holdout with good behavior, and it has lost that exceptionalism. It made 1Password special, and was one reason I recommended it to others.
My other disappointment is that some user complaints how 1Password 8 doesn't feel right are redirected, told by AgileBits: "This is the best version of 1Password yet!". That's true, though disrespectful of the specific criticisms.
This is the best version of 1Password by many metrics. The core is very good. The skin keeps getting better. Many improvements continue to be made. I'll keep using it and continue to recommend it to others.
It is still the worst version in terms of native macOS UI feel, behavior, and consistency.
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Hey folks,
Thanks for the thoughtful and considered responses here - they're genuinely appreciated. We of course want to be held to a high standard on every platform and will continue to work to exceed your expectations.
A few thoughts, at this point in the conversation:
- Scroll: we have a feature request open for this with our developers. If you'd like to cast a vote for it, let me know and I'll be happy to get that done on your behalf.
- Item counts in the sidebar: likewise, we have a feature request open for this too, and invite votes here as well.
While I can't promise that any particular feature will make it to a future update of 1Password, we on the customer support team do our best to convey your observations and sentiments internally in a way that's likely to result in an improved app experience. And we'll keep doing that! Moving on...
- search: this is an active area of improvement for us, which folks who have spent some time in the Desktop Betas forum will be familiar with. I don't have anything new to share on this yet, but we are considering the needs of multiple groups of users and working to provide the best experience possible. We get that search is really important.
My other disappointment is that some user complaints how 1Password 8 doesn't feel right are redirected, told by AgileBits: "This is the best version of 1Password yet!". That's true, though disrespectful of the specific criticisms.
We certainly don't intend any disrespect, and do consider the criticisms carefully (and often discuss them internally, at length). When we say things like "This is the best version of 1Password yet", it's because 1) we believe it! and 2) we are trying to keep perspective on the overall state of things, while still leaving the door open to continual feedback and critique. We want to keep things positive, constructive, and in perspective. But that in no way involves minimizing your concerns, and if you feel that's happening I hope you'll let us know.
I hope it's evident too, from the Beta development process, that we're taking your feedback seriously and continually working to out-do ourselves and improve our processes along the way. We'll keep paying attention to what you have to say!
edited: because I never get the Markup right the first time 😜
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@PeterG_1P Thanks for your continued replies and explanations. I just want to get one thing clarified: how can a huge team of great developers like yourselves get to the point that a major version is being released without feature parity with the old version?
Don't get me wrong, after the initial disappointment of 8 not being a native macOS app, I see some fantastic features like the system-wide autofill for example. The new Watchtower implementation als seems much easier for non-tech-savvy users like the rest of my family.
However, I see quite a bit of things missing from 7: item count in sidebar and macOS App Store app (I've got my subscription over there even) just to name a few. Also: I find it extremely hard to digest that I couldn't find any explanation about missing features or the lack of an App Store app. And I've read both the beta blog post and release blog post of May 3, including searching the support pages and the rest of the website for an hour or more. For me, it's not just the fact that features are missing or I can't upgrade using the macOS App Store (yet?) but the complete lack of transparency from Agilebits on this part. I mean: just be open about it! There are lots of enthusiastic users using your product and transparency and communication is the primary key to keeping users attached in the long-term.
Yet, all communication and support pages seem to be along the lines of "look at our greatest 1Password version ever!" and actively fail to tell that there are some features missing and the fact there is no macOS App Store version. If you would've just made a single lined comment in the blog post pointing to a support page explaining what exactly is missing and why you don't have a macOS App Store version and whether that's "not yet" or "stopped with it full stop", that would be transparent. However, now us users need to go into the forums or socials and try and get a proper answer out of you guys this way. This is leaving a very, very sour taste in my mouth and unless I'm receiving proper feedback on this, I'm really on the verge of cancelling my subscription which is due to be renewed in just a few weeks.
I do believe you still have one of the best password managers, but it has gotten to the point where it comes across as arrogance. Maybe it isn't, but then it at the very least feels as if you actively went out of your way of not mentioning these topics to your users. I simply cannot understand why that would be done. Being transparent and just saying "here's what good/new in 8 and here's what's missing compared to 7 and coming later or not coming back at all" would've at least made us well-informed and given us an option to decide whether this route you've taken meets our own expectations of the product, yet now it feels as if you treat your users as sheeple who just have to follow your "fantastic product, the best we've ever created" no matter what.
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AddVariety, we’ll said.
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I can understand that as a complete rewrite, it is not possible to add in everything from the cumulative development of years that went into one now different app. Likely they had to make a choice of first including what is considered most essential as well as revisiting the app in general and deciding if any previous feature really should be included. Including everything they wanted in some initial release possibly wouldn’t have been possible without significant delay.
Still haven’t used the app much to have any general impressions. But indeed it is not very macOS like. For example the use of color compared to macOS. For the moment seems they decided they wanted one design across all platforms rather than adapting as much as possible to each, e.g. the large colored new item button looks out of place. Apple thinks such isn’t necessary for ease of use thus one doesn’t see colored toolbar icons in their guidelines. Not necessarily that Apple is correct in all design decisions but following guidelines and modifying the UI as such changes, I think many of us would prefer such.
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@olliedog If you scroll down the homepage for Tauri you'll see that 1Password is the first listed Premium Sponsor, and as can be seen here are by far the biggest financial donor.
They've said on these forums that they're continually evaluating it as a potential replacement for Electron for the front-end.
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Well I'll be a greased weasel. Thanks for pointing that out, I am glad to hear it.
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Thanks snozdop. Appreciate the assist.
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