Simple Question - Straight Response Requested

TTGuy

I am one of the multitude of unhappy customers due to AgileBits atrocious unwillingness to address a legitimate customer issue regarding iCloud sync and the crippled Webstore version of 1Password that does not contain the full feature set of the Mac AppStore version. I take that back, as AgileBits did purportedly address the issue by having Chris repeat over and over "email us and we'll see what we can do." Unfortunately, it turns out that while AgileBits could undoubtedly find some sort of solution to the problem, what it is willing to do is "absolutely nothing" except tell us "you can spend even more of your money and enrich us further."

I have a simple question for which I would like a straight answer. I have not been able to find an answer to this in the forums but if I have missed it I apologize.

My question is: What rationale does AgileBits have for not offering a $35 refund to people who currently have an AgileBits Webstore license for 1Password 4 and who prove that they pay an additional $35 to purchase the Mac AppStore version (as others have suggested)?

After providing the refund you could even disable the existing AgileBits Webstore license (if that is technically possible).

danco

Can you come up with a good solution? The problem with your suggestion is that it costs AgileBits a fair amount of money. My guess is that the cost is more than they can cope with.

If AgileBits simply refunded the cost of App Store purchase to anyone who had purchased both from App Store and direct from them, it would cost them the 30% of the price that Apple keeps on purchases. And that's money they would actually have to pay, not just a smaller amount of money received.

I agree with you that AgileBits mishandled the situation. But I suspect that actual refunds might cause major cash-flow problems for them.

TTGuy

I considered that Danco, but they already have that money in the bank so to speak. If I had been purchasing 1Password via the Mac Appstore (which in hindsight I should have - as with many others, I continued using the AgileBits webstore over the years solely so that AgileBits would get 100% of the license fees rather than 70%) they would already have lost that 30%. And if I switch to another product (currently considering Dashlane, they will lose ALL future licensing revenue from me.

I have no quarrel with the 1Password software itself. Although it is arguably expensive in comparison to competitor products, it is top quality and I have enjoyed using it (and have been happy to support a small Canadian developer). Again, arguably, the incremental price should support superior customer service in addition to the software product. But when that developer decides not to provide a reasonable solution to a real problem raised by more than a few of its customers, then it is not to be unexpected that those customers consider alternatives.

And if at some time in the future I am a Dashlane customer and they decide that notwithstanding the annual licensing fee I am paying them, I will have to pony up more cash if I want the same functionality as some of their other licensees, you can bet I will be posting on their discussion board (and moving on again) as well.

hawkmoth

I suspect @danco has diagnosed the problem correctly as a cash flow issue. Retroactively absorbing a 30% hit would be a problem for almost any business. That's likely the flaw in the logic that says they already have the funds to make the refunds.

TTGuy

Fair enough @hawkmoth and I have asked AgileBits for a straight answer with no response (so far). Such an answer could be "we are very short of cash and would not be able to meet payroll if we offered $35 refunds to people who upgrade to the Mac AppStore version as we would be losing 30% of the $35 to Apple". That would be a straight answer (no idea whether it is remotely true, just throwing it out there as something I would consider a straight answer).

AgileBits could also offer a $25 refund to people who buy the Mac AppStore version and who already have a valid 1Password 4 license. The $10 delta would be roughly the amount Apple was going to take from the $35 purchase. Not an ideal solution for customers, but it would be revenue/cash neutral to AgileBits and would give customers a choice as to whether it was worth an incremental $10 (versus $35) to get iCloud sync functionality. Could meet in the middle with a $30 refund, sharing the $10 Apple "fee" with customers.

It just seems that by doing nothing to try to resolve the issue AgileBits' position is essentially "we kind of screwed our AgileBits WebStore customers by selling them a lesser version of the software compared to what Mac Appstore customers got even though they paid the same price (and we netted less from the Mac Appstore sales). We said we would consider options to address the issue, but, well, unless they are willing to pay another $35, it sucks to be them."

That just seems short-sighted to me.

Ben

Hi folks,

Our upgrade policy has always been that 'major' upgrades (e.x. v2 -> v3 -> v4) come with a price. This time around we decided to be extra generous, and make 1Password 5 for Mac a free update for everyone who had purchased 1Password 4 for Mac (and even those who had been given free upgrades to 1Password 4 for Mac based on their purchase date of 1Password 3 for Mac). We're happy to do that for our customers.

But of course as you've read part of the problem we're facing is that the new iCloud sync technology we're using, CloudKit, is only available when an application has been purchased from Apple (their sync service, their store, their rules). We had iCloud syncing in 1Password 4 for Mac, of course, through iCloud Documents and Data. Docs & Data was never really designed to do what we were doing with it, and as a result we ended up with a lot of customer service reports that really all we could tell them was that the iCloud magic wasn't working. Perhaps doing a rain dance and waving a stick would resolve the issue. Understandably neither AgileBits nor our customers were very happy with that. CloudKit gives us much more insight into what iCloud is doing, what data has been delivered to what devices, etc and is actually designed to sync a database such as 1Password's.

So at the end of the day what this basically boils down to is:

• If you were on the web store version and Dropbox or WiFi sync will work for you, you get a free upgrade to v5
• If you've already purchased from the Mac App Store, you're unaffected, and get a free upgrade to v5
• If you want to continue to sync via iCloud, you have to purchase from the Mac App Store

We have a 30 day money back guarantee on purchases from our web store. We're happy to provide that. If you aren't sure if you fall within that grace period, shoot us an email, and we'll be happy to check.

We want AgileBits to be able to continue producing high quality software for many years to come, and this is the only way we'll be able to do that and continue to provide the products and support that our customers are used to.

randy_va

@TTGuy: Here is another angle to consider.

I own the Agilebits website version of 1PW5 for Mac and actually prefer it to the Apple App Store version. At least so far, anyway. As a licensed owner from the developer, I was (am) entitled to upgrades, either free or at a reduced price. My copy is actually a free upgrade from 1PW version 4, which I bought at a discounted promotional price just before version 5. Discount upgrade pricing is apparently not possible on the Apple App Store, but the developer has freedom to provide free or reduced-price upgrades on his own website. After hearing this explanation on a podcast ("Mac Power Users"), I made a deliberate decision to buy the developer version instead of the App Store version. Sure enough, I received the free upgrade from version 4 to version 5. It remains to be seen what will happen for a future major upgrade, however.

A condensed version of this explanation is available on Katie Floyd's blog (link follows). Katie and her colleague, David Sparks, are lawyers who produce the well-regarded Mac-oriented Podcast "Mac Power Users". Highly recommended. Here is a link to the applicable post on Katie Floyd's blog:
katiefloyd.me/blog/rebuilding-a-mac-from-scratch

With the OS X Yosemite/IOS releases it turned out that the App Store version has one advantage over the Agilebits-sold version, that is, the capability to sync over iCloud. Some may consider that to be a substantial advantage. I do not; it's a moot point, since I actually prefer to sync with Dropbox rather than iCould. There are multiple reasons for this. One, there was a period of at least a month or so when iCloud sync was not available between Macs and IOS devices, just before the latest IOS and OS X versions were released. Two, iCloud has undergone several iterations of changes and has a history of being unreliable at times. Dropbox is much more mature and stable - it just works. Sync is what Dropbox does, and it does it well. Three, iCloud sync is limited to Apple's ecosystem - OS X and IOS. Dropbox sync is cross-platform - Apple, Windows, Android. Even though I currently use only OS X and IOS, I have learned over the years that it is unwise to paint yourself into a single platform, a single or proprietary file format or a potentially obsolete medium.

Bottom line: Agilebit's web store version has one advantage and the Apple App Store version has one advantage. Pick the version you want. I chose the Agilebits web store version.

I understand that you are unhappy that you can't do iCloud sync with your version and had to buy a 2nd copy, but that is really Apple's policy dealing with technical "sandboxing" restrictions, not Agilebits' policy. You might consider doing your sync through Dropbox or wi-fi. There are other advantages for using Dropbox, and it is free for up to 2 (or is it 2.5?) GB of storage. It's a great service, it has application interfaces with a large number of OS X and IOS apps, and it has become a standard for mobile app extensions.

If you decide to switch to Dashlane, I would be interested to see how it compares, coming from an experienced 1PW user. After a great deal of research I chose 1PW and have been happy with it. Even more so now - Agilebits provides great support through email and in this forum. I would gladly pay a relatively small upgrade price (or buy a new version) if I needed added functions in a new version. Remember, though, that 1PW is a local app that will always run on your Mac as it is now - no subscription required.

Just my $02.

TTGuy

@‌randy_va: thank you very much for your comments. You hit the nail on the head and provided a clear rationale for differentiation between the WebStore and Mac AppStore versions of 1Password.

The ability for AgileBits to offer a reduced price for future paid upgrades from the WebStore where they would be unable to do so for purchases from the Mac AppStore is a significant differentiator to me.

WebStore version: Dropbox and WiFi sync along with possible/probable discounts for future paid upgrades.

Mac Appstore version: Dropbox, WiFi and iCloud sync but all paid upgrades will be treated as full price new licenses (whatever that full price may be).

I appreciate it might be too soon for AgileBits to commit to what they might do regarding pricing for future paid updates, but explaining that difference to customers makes a lot of sense. Knowing those parameters, customers could choose between versions depending on how much value they put on iCloud sync versus future upgrades at a reduced price. Presumably AgileBits will have sufficient grounds to be able to offer a lower upgrade price on the WebStore version as it has lesser functionality (no iCloud sync) and so Apple could not bust them for discounting identical software.

I really recommend that AgileBits take this approach as the next battleground will almost certainly be if/when the next paid upgrade arrives and discounted upgrades are offered to customers on the WebStore but not on the Mac AppStore. Unless AgileBits has clearly differentiated the products, Mac AppStore customers will complain that they are being overcharged and should be given refunds for the difference in upgrade amounts.

If presented on those terms, for me the WebStore version of the software would have more value and I would not feel like I had less flexible software for exactly the same price.

Thanks again.

randy_va

@TTGuy - thank you for your kind remarks.

For anyone else reading this, please understand that I have no relationship with Agilebits; just a satisfied customer. I don't speak for Agilebits and make no representation as to their intentions regarding upgrade policy. I simply agree with Ms. Floyd and Mr. Sparks in their podcast and with Ms. Floyd in her blog (see above post) that Agilebits has the capability to, and has in the past, provided reduced-cost upgrades to direct developer-purchased version of the app.

It behooves all of us to understand the technical details of our mobile devices and how they operate in various circumstances in our rapidly-changing environment. We are using these devices for really important functions - communications, managing financial accounts, preparing and transmitting documents, and other functions. Maintaining our passwords securely and syncing sensitive information among devices are non-trivial functions. I will gladly pay a reasonable price for quality applications that will protect the security of my data. Even more, I WANT to pay. I want the developer to succeed. I don't want to use a "free" app from a developer who is paid by a third party - an advertiser, or whatever. I WANT to pay for important high-quality apps, so the developers depend on the loyalty of their customers and on their own reputations. Furthermore, I want the developer to keep on top of the latest developments and to upgrade the apps as needed to work with new devices and operating systems. So far, so good with Agilebits and 1Password.

I appreciate the position of the Agilebits developers and understand (and agree with!) their actions and policies.

Megan

Hi @‌randy_va,

Thanks so much for providing an additional perspective here! We very much appreciate your support of 1Password, and your time in writing such detailed feedback.

Discount upgrade pricing is apparently not possible on the Apple App Store, but the developer has freedom to provide free or reduced-price upgrades on his own website.

You're certainly correct, offering 1Password directly from our webstore allows us a flexibility in rewarding loyal users that the Mac App Store does not. We can't make promises on how future updates will be handled, of course - we're still working our way through this current one! - but we always do our best to ensure that our users are taken care of.

@TTGuy, I do hope that @bwoodruff‌ and @randy_va's comments above have provided a bit of perspective on things, but if you have further questions, we're here to help!

TTGuy

@Megan‌ I have definitely been enlightened through this discussion along with a concurrent email exchange with another AgileBits Support team member. My perspective has changed and now that I understand the different value propositions between the WebStore and Mac AppStore versions of the software I am happy staying with the WebStore and syncing via Dropbox. I only wish AgileBits had taken the opportunity to explain the difference right from the outset rather than @randy_va‌ having to do it.

It is my first time spending any material time in these forums and I am very impressed by the responsiveness of the AgileBits team, but also by the assistance offered by other users. I appreciate that in addition to producing first rate software, AgileBits does care about resolving customer issues.

In fact, I am now embarrassed by some of my earlier comments/allegations and saying things that turned out to be untrue. My apologies to the AgileBits team.

Megan

Hi @TTGuy,

I am so glad to hear that this conversation (and the email exchange as well) have been helpful for you! I do apologize that you feel we didn't properly explain the situation. I think you're right, there is room for improvement here. In fact, I'm passing this thread along to our document gurus. We're still working on polishing up our documentation for version 5, and I think some of Randy's thoughts could fit well inside our Purchase and Licensing FAQ in the knowledgebase.

Thanks for your persistence in searching for answers!

randy_va

@TTGuy and anyone else interested -- To follow up, I ran across some additional information on Apple's iCloud that may be of interest:

David Sparks, in his blog "MacSparky", posted comments on the current problems experienced with iCloud and iCloud Drive. Here is the direct link to that post: macsparky.com/blog/2014/11/icloud-drive-stumbles

As good as the Apple OS X/IOS/iCloud ecosystem is, there are substantial problems with iCloud at the moment. That is one reason for my choice of Dropbox (instead of iCloud) for 1Password sync. Both versions of 1Password for Mac support Dropbox and wi-fi sync, and both of those options are preferable to iCloud sync, at least for now -- just my opinion.

This tends to reinforce the notion that there is only limited advantage to the Apple App Store version (that allows iCloud sync) of 1Password for Mac.

(Added note - Correction to post #9 above: the reference to "fee" app from a developer should read "free" app from a developer. Sorry for any confusion.)

sjk

Greetings, @randy_va.

Thanks for sharing that MacSparky blog link along with your additional comments. For everyone's benefit, let's hope these teething pains with Apple's iCloud service changes will be relatively short lived. This hasn't affected syncing of my 1Password data since I primarily use Dropbox and Wi-Fi syncing for that, although I've noticed some issues with Contacts data after switching over to iCloud Drive on Yosemite and iOS 8.

I've fixed that tiny fee vs. free typo in post #9. It did give me a momentary "huh?" pause when I'd originally read it but there was enough context to quickly realize what you'd meant. :)

TTGuy

As noted above, I am now a happy camper using DropBox to sync 1Password. I am using iCloud Drive to sync most of my other software and so far everything seems to be working on all of my devices (iMac, iPhone 6, iPad Mini, iPad Air, iPad 3, iPod Touch). Have not experienced any of the problems mentioned in the MacSparky blog post. But at the same time, 1PW is also syncing flawlessly using DropBox.

It appears there are less posts in the forums from people wanting to use iCloud sync and unhappy that they have the WebStore version of 1PW so hopefully AgileBits has mostly resolved that issue and can get back to addressing other glitches and making great software (and yes, I am fully aware of the irony of making that comment). :)