Several questions/disappointments now that have moved over to 1Password for Families.

tulbox

I have several questions/disappointments now that have moved over to 1Password for Families.

1. I was under the impression that I could configure another family member as a "password reset helper family member" for lack of a better name. E.g. I get locked out of my account, the other family member can help reset my account so I can regain access again. However, it appears that the only way to do this is by setting up the other family member as an organizer, which is essentially a super admin (among other things, give herself access to all vaults, etc.). My whole point in switching to families was to separate important business credentials from personal/family (not that I don't trust my wife, I just want less potential security breach entry points), so this all or nothing approach defeats the point as her account exploited means all vaults can potentially be exploited (unless I'm missing something).
2. This is potentially a big disappointment: with multi-vault, you assign a master password per vault and therefore can have multiple users on the same device (as often happens on a family computer - no use having kids log in and log out of individual computer account) and still have lockdown on different vaults. It appears that with families, you've got one installation and whatever 1Password account is initially configured with it. And that's it. If I'm understanding this correctly, sigh.
3. Moreover, it appears you can create whatever local master password you want and that's used to unlock all vaults accessible via the 1Password account configured in the settings. Yes, you can set the password the same, but it's just one more level of cognitive dissonance (and a problem as per the above point regarding one account per computer login).
4. Have brought up elsewhere, and hear reasons behind it, but bringing it up again because it's rather essential and, IMHO, was misleading initially: real Windows support is essential. Glad that semantics are now "Windows support coming soon" as opposed to "requires Windows 10" (the latter being VERY misleading considering for all intents and purposes, family version is not supported on Windows).
5. More cognitive dissonance: I can guess as to the technical reasons for needing to do so, but why oh why do you need to create an initial vault - too much thinking involved right at the start - heck, just make it automatically create one for you when you say "I'm a Family/Team Member".
6. Minor issue: I'll never use the primary vault, but can't remove. Possible to do so? I can totally see family members dumping stuff in there by mistake. Again, not insurmountable, but unnecessary cognitive dissonance.

In other words, multi-vault fits all my requirements except that still not supported by Android (lock down different vaults in the same computer account, and Mac, iOS, Android, and Windows support - albeit Windows app has a lot of catching up to do, but at least it mostly works). Switched to, and pre-paid for the year, for 1Password for Families making some assumptions (yes, I tested out all the problem areas prior - namely Android support), that turned out to be very wrong (accounts would be more like multi-vault and Windows support)

I have been a long-time 1Password user, and greatly appreciate support's very quick and helpful turnarounds. Being a developer myself, I understand the delays etc. However, I can't imagine non-tech-savvy users easily figuring out switching to Teams/Families. I have to say that I'm very disappointed about this rollout and expected a lot better.

In spite of the other benefits, if Android multi-vault support was released right now, I'd switch back in a heartbeat as 1Password for Families in its present form is not currently usable for my family and me.

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Jacob

Hey @tulbox! What a fantastic post. I'd like to reply to each point at a time. Feel free to do the same when you follow up. Let's jump in.

I was under the impression that I could configure another family member as a "password reset helper family member" for lack of a better name. E.g. I get locked out of my account, the other family member can help reset my account so I can regain access again. However, it appears that the only way to do this is by setting up the other family member as an organizer, which is essentially a super admin (among other things, give herself access to all vaults, etc.). My whole point in switching to families was to separate important business credentials from personal/family (not that I don't trust my wife, I just want less potential security breach entry points), so this all or nothing approach defeats the point as her account exploited means all vaults can potentially be exploited (unless I'm missing something).

Sorry for the confusion there. Families is a bit more simplified in its roles. There are family members and Owners, as you mentioned. 1Password for Teams has some additional groups, but it will cost more when it's out of beta since these are power features and it's meant for a business environment. I think you can do something that will help in your case: Save your Emergency Kit as you were asked to when you signed up, then print two copies of that. Write your Master Password on both of them, and store one for you and another in a place your wife would be able to access easily.

This is potentially a big disappointment: with multi-vault, you assign a master password per vault and therefore can have multiple users on the same device (as often happens on a family computer - no use having kids log in and log out of individual computer account) and still have lockdown on different vaults. It appears that with families, you've got one installation and whatever 1Password account is initially configured with it. And that's it. If I'm understanding this correctly, sigh.

This actually isn't possible in the 1Password apps even if you don't have Families set up, if I'm understanding your post correctly. We've had requests for it, but at the moment we're working on some other things I'm sure you'll enjoy. Have you considered multiple user accounts on shared devices? This isn't possible on iOS, but it is on Mac, Windows, and some Android devices. Quite a few people use 1Password this way. The other option is to simply have the 1Password app for one member of the Families account, then sign in to the other members in the browser. You can even use multiple profiles in Chrome to keep the Account Keys (which are stored locally) organized nicely.

Now, if I'm not understanding your post correctly, the other interpretation may be that you're looking to use the same password to unlock more vaults. This is totally possible. That's why it's called 1Password. You can add as many vaults to the app as you'd like and unlock them all with the Master Password you set things up with, whether that's your Families one or the Primary vault's (more on this in the next section).

Moreover, it appears you can create whatever local master password you want and that's used to unlock all vaults accessible via the 1Password account configured in the settings. Yes, you can set the password the same, but it's just one more level of cognitive dissonance (and a problem as per the above point regarding one account per computer login).

Minor issue: I'll never use the primary vault, but can't remove. Possible to do so? I can totally see family members dumping stuff in there by mistake. Again, not insurmountable, but unnecessary cognitive dissonance.

If you used 1Password before Families came around, this is true. We're working on minimizing the setup process, but for now you can just remove the Primary vault and go Families-only. On Mac, we have a nice little tool to move your data automatically so you don't have to worry about backing it up manually (in case you have anything in the Primary vault). You can download it here: http://com-agilebits-users.s3.amazonaws.com/jacob/Data-Reset-Utility-1Password-4-or-later.zip

Once you run that, launch 1Password and sign in to your Families account. Families-only mode will be enabled and you'll be able to access all those vaults with the same Master Password as you're using on your account. :)

Have brought up elsewhere, and hear reasons behind it, but bringing it up again because it's rather essential and, IMHO, was misleading initially: real Windows support is essential. Glad that semantics are now "Windows support coming soon" as opposed to "requires Windows 10" (the latter being VERY misleading considering for all intents and purposes, family version is not supported on Windows).

I completely agree. I'm not primarily a Windows user, but I respond to a lot of requests here on the forums and I know how vital it is. We all do at AgileBits. We're working on it, but we have a small team. I updated the website a week or so back to be more clear about that, and I'm very glad you noticed the change. :) Hopefully we do have some updates for you in the future regarding this. As I'm sure you've seen elsewhere on the forums, please do keep an eye on our blog and newsletter for word on how things are coming.

More cognitive dissonance: I can guess as to the technical reasons for needing to do so, but why oh why do you need to create an initial vault - too much thinking involved right at the start - heck, just make it automatically create one for you when you say "I'm a Family/Team Member".

We were really excited when we added this because a lot of people didn't know where to start with their Families account. Almost everyone wants to share some items with their spouse, and they need a vault to do that, so we wanted to help them set it up. We don't want to do it automatically, though, because when a task is one that requires input from the user, it's even better to teach them how to use things than to do it for them. It also makes them feel more involved in the setup process and gives them a chance to make the account their own. I don't think this is cognitive dissonance.

In other words, multi-vault fits all my requirements except that still not supported by Android (lock down different vaults in the same computer account, and Mac, iOS, Android, and Windows support - albeit Windows app has a lot of catching up to do, but at least it mostly works). Switched to, and pre-paid for the year, for 1Password for Families making some assumptions (yes, I tested out all the problem areas prior - namely Android support), that turned out to be very wrong (accounts would be more like multi-vault and Windows support)

I'm not sure what you mean here. Is this the same multi-vault functionality you were mentioning above, with separate passwords for each vault, or is it something else?

AGAlumB

In spite of the other benefits, if Android multi-vault support was released right now, I'd switch back in a heartbeat as 1Password for Families in its present form is not currently usable for my family and me.

@tulbox: I just wanted to follow up here in case there was some misunderstanding. I know I was a bit confused by some of your "multi-vault" remarks, and perhaps penderworth was as well.

To be clear, 1Password for Android supports multiple vaults in a 1Password Teams/Families account, but it does not yet support multiple "local" (non-Families/Teams) vaults. Re-reading your last paragraph, I think that may have been what you were referring to.

I have been a long-time 1Password user, and greatly appreciate support's very quick and helpful turnarounds. Being a developer myself, I understand the delays etc. However, I can't imagine non-tech-savvy users easily figuring out switching to Teams/Families. I have to say that I'm very disappointed about this rollout and expected a lot better.

Thank you for the kind words and honest, constrictive criticism!

I want to apologize that you haven't had the smooth ride you were expecting with 1Password Families. Being an early adopter is never easy. Even though it can be exciting to try something new, there are often some sharp edges, and it isn't always the seamless experience we want it to be.

That's part of the reason we've given 1Password Families early adopters extra storage, additional members, and up to 4 months free (depending on when you signed up). We really appreciate you and everyone else who's joined us on this adventure and all the incredible feedback we've received in general and from you in particular.

I'm sorry to see you go, but perhaps it is just a parting of ways. We'll continue to improve it based on everyone's requests and criticism, and hopefully we'll be able to better meet you and your family's needs in the future. :blush:

tulbox

1. Was under the impression that "Families" vs. "Teams" versions were the same apart from licensing. Until recently, wasn't even able to switch my initial "Teams" license to "Family", therefore my surprise when couldn't assign account recovery privileges without giving ownership as was able to do so in initial testing a couple months back. Guess just back to my old way (anything happens to me, wife knows how to get access to account).
2. Multi-vault: https://support.1password.com/guides/mac/create-a-new-vault.html. Old 1Password ability to share vaults with others. Tested it out and actually started using until shocker, it wasn't available on Android so had to roll back. It did work to have restricted access to vaults for others (e.g. a master password for different vaults) so worked fine for our purposes without needing to resort to multiple user accounts on shared devices. And no, the principle reason for using 1Password is the secure, but easy, ability to auto-fill credentials, so using the online version of 1Password doesn't cut it. We're a family of five, and while my personal machines are locked down, the common workstation is too much hassle to have five different user accounts when it's just used for common browsing and school work ("hey dad, what's the password for ordering lunches at school?" while already having completed the whole order, but just need to complete - not going to switch accounts and restart the process just because 1Password for Families doesn't have multi-user support).
3. Windows...
4. Initial steps: I'm a very technical user and the initial steps were confusing to me. I started from scratch on one device and kept looking for "Families/Teams", but all I could do was find an existing vault or create a new one. No mention of families until the second step. I have a family account (and therefore, in my thinking, I "have an existing vault"), but I've got to "create a new vault" on the first step, not "hook up with my family account".
5. The old 1Password (no Family/Team accounts) did everything we needed (short of having an improved Windows app that doesn't lag horribly in feature parity/functionality with the Mac app and literally - lag that is) except provide for multi-vault support in Android - yes, meaning multiple "local" non-family/team vaults (again, have used and promoted 1Password for years and years). Family/Teams provides a bunch of nice-to-have-but-not-essential features, but has multiple deal breakers so likely back to "old" 1Password.

And wherever it fits in the points, I can't delete the auto-created "Primary" vault. Option in Mac app is greyed out and no option for just that vault online (can delete any other vault).

Jacob

@tulbox Thanks for getting back to me! :)

Was under the impression that "Families" vs. "Teams" versions were the same apart from licensing. Until recently, wasn't even able to switch my initial "Teams" license to "Family", therefore my surprise when couldn't assign account recovery privileges without giving ownership as was able to do so in initial testing a couple months back. Guess just back to my old way (anything happens to me, wife knows how to get access to account).

They're quite different, actually, and growing apart. Each one will have its own exclusive features at some point to distinguish them. They did start together, though, and they both run on the same technology, which at one point was 1Password for Teams.

Multi-vault: https://support.1password.com/guides/mac/create-a-new-vault.html. Old 1Password ability to share vaults with others. Tested it out and actually started using until shocker, it wasn't available on Android so had to roll back. It did work to have restricted access to vaults for others (e.g. a master password for different vaults) so worked fine for our purposes without needing to resort to multiple user accounts on shared devices. And no, the principle reason for using 1Password is the secure, but easy, ability to auto-fill credentials, so using the online version of 1Password doesn't cut it. We're a family of five, and while my personal machines are locked down, the common workstation is too much hassle to have five different user accounts when it's just used for common browsing and school work ("hey dad, what's the password for ordering lunches at school?" while already having completed the whole order, but just need to complete - not going to switch accounts and restart the process just because 1Password for Families doesn't have multi-user support).

I think there's a bit of confusion of how 1Password Families works. We built it because 1Password didn't have support for multiple users before. Sharing a vault just meant sharing the folder with someone in Dropbox, and they used the same Master Password everyone else to access it. That wasn't a very good method, because more people had to know the Master Password and there was no access control on things.

With Families, we have a solution to both those problems. Each member on the account has their own Master Password and Account Key linked to their email address. They also have a Personal vault and automatically get access to the Shared one for the family. Owners of the account can create new vaults and add specific members to those. Once you sign in to 1Password in any of the apps, including Android, you'll be able to access all the vaults you are a member of. If you're not a member of a vault, you can ask one of the Owners to add you to it. It sounds like this is what you're looking for, with the exception of having multiple user accounts. :)

Initial steps: I'm a very technical user and the initial steps were confusing to me. I started from scratch on one device and kept looking for "Families/Teams", but all I could do was find an existing vault or create a new one. No mention of families until the second step. I have a family account (and therefore, in my thinking, I "have an existing vault"), but I've got to "create a new vault" on the first step, not "hook up with my family account".

What platform was this on? We improved things quite a bit recently so I expect this has changed.

The old 1Password (no Family/Team accounts) did everything we needed (short of having an improved Windows app that doesn't lag horribly in feature parity/functionality with the Mac app and literally - lag that is) except provide for multi-vault support in Android - yes, meaning multiple "local" non-family/team vaults (again, have used and promoted 1Password for years and years). Family/Teams provides a bunch of nice-to-have-but-not-essential features, but has multiple deal breakers so likely back to "old" 1Password.

No problem! You can keep using 1Password as you prefer. Switch back to the old version if you'd like, or keep using Families and feel free to let us know if you have suggestions for things we can improve.

And wherever it fits in the points, I can't delete the auto-created "Primary" vault. Option in Mac app is greyed out and no option for just that vault online (can delete any other vault).

I mentioned how to do this in my last post. Please have a look and let me know if you have any questions.