Attach File
Comments
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it feels pretty obvious that having the ability to attach documents as well as linking to a document object would be a smart compromise.
I don't disagree. We'd like to find a way to strike a balance.
ref: b5/b5#5554
And please allow us to add files from cloud apps like drive or dropbox, not only selecting photos from gallery. We want to attach PDFs and some key files as well from the 1Password mobile app.
We do also have a feature request filed for that as well. I'll add your comments to the request. Thanks.
ref: apple-1117
Ben
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Glad to hear this is still "in the works." I'm still waiting as well. People really need this, at least simple things. e.g. like the aforementioned need to store private ssh keys (@ctpublic comment). The goal being that 1passsword is the "keys to the kingdom," the top layer of the "security onion" with layered security, the first go to when starting from scratch and building what's needed to access everything else.
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I don't see where there's a security risk to using "Documents", or a security advantage to using "attachments", but certainly there are opportunities to make it easier to manage files in 1Password. Cheers! :)
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Hi,
I am a 1Password user since many years (don't even remember how long, but remember paying for the standalone upgrade at least 2 times; so I have been using it since 3 releases back, at least).
Last few years, I've been using 1Password 6 until today and was satisfied, although the interface is showing the signs of age; and I was looking for a seamless way to sync multiple vaults (although I never really understood why can't we sync multiple ones, via iCloud). Anyway, I then decided to go for 1Password 7 via a subscription. I started with a monthly subscription with the intention to go for a yearly family subscription. Luckily I took this multi-step approach and luckily there is a trial period; and this because the way attachments (or now called Documents) are handled is just dreadful for my use cases (and honestly I think for most people).
I completely agree with the comments from "ctpublic" about the constants "change of context"; not to mention having every single attachment/document appearing on its own polluting my search results and "All Items" lists (and I find it difficult to believe this is a "feature" in demand). Not to mention the inability to download them all into my iPhone...
Quite frankly, this was handled much better in the previous release 6. Been trying to live with it for the last few hours, but came to the realisation that this is a deal-breaker for me, leaving me with two options:
1. Go back to 1Password 6 with iCloud sync for one vault only (far from ideal, but personally prefer to have attachments handled properly); and eagerly wait that fixing this mess in some near future roadmap.
2. Try something else. Perhaps LastPass to see if it's any better (didn't like it so much last time; but not liking 1Passord 7 at all either, mostl because of this).0 -
Hi.
My comment previous comment wasn't about "security risk" or "security advantages" as mentioned by brenty. It was intended to communicate the need for better usability, given the level of importance placed in 1password when managing large amounts of diverse information. My example was only to communicate the importance 1password has evolved to, and without 1password our hands are tied. But as is, using it is a struggle.
It simply boils down to the problem of usability, manageability, etc, while enabling immediate access to a single piece of information, at a given point in time, among large combinations of diverse information types within 1password.
Related to usability, and an extension of this thread, are things like improved searching. e.g. one can't even search for content in a decent way, let alone search within something like note. Try finding something in a note, a single piece of information buried in 1 of 100 notes, each note a page or two long. The only way is to visual search of each one. It's like finding a string somewhere on one of 100 sheets of paper. A simple search would be nice (both for and within), and the ability to do regex search would be awesome. OR a search finds an ssh-key, but the associative back reference is gone. I could go on an on really...
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Good news for me (sort of): in the meantime, I discovered that if I download the Mac app from 1Password.com, instead of directly from the Mac app store, I can actually maintain vaults stored in 1Password plus another one in iCloud. The latter allows attachments to be handled as in v6 (i.e. properly!). This might actually work from me, while I wait for some improvements to the way Documents are currently handled...
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@ctpublic Agreed. I know people like myself who do technology for living giving up on 1password. I started "testing" the product back in v2 I think over 10 years ago, it was still 1passwd. The thing that keeps me super interested is it's direct use with the cloud. A single browser-based interface, getting rid of the platform dependent app. SaaS with "password management" being a misnomer, but rather a "management system for secure information" in SasS form being the holy grail. As is, an app on a given platform by itself isn't good enough for me. I find myself at linux boxes 60% of the time, Osx 30% and windows maybe 10% (rough percentages). So the solution "just use the OSX app" doesn't cut it for me. But the user base for single-platform-app is decreasing quickly as well. i.e. I got all these people with Chromebooks asking what to use.
You also make a good point regarding technical users, since I quickly get the response "most users aren't you" and "you aren't our market." Yet we're the ones that push the product, and in several of my cases require the product to those we create infrastructure for. I've pointed at least 100's to 1password over the years, and am constantly pushing people to use "any password manager." And like most products, I first ask, what are your needs, and am now pointing them to other things like keypass. I've tried them all (mostly), under all platforms since I've been doing this for 25+ years, many of which were in security directly. So yes, we understand the basics, like encryption, and have been discussing strategies for years with our peers.
So personally, I still can't rely 100% on 1password (or any app) yet after all these years I keep hoping. For example, I've completely gone back to managing ssh-keys with GPG encryption of secret keys, storage at know hardened security location, accessible via ssh with enhanced auth. Originally I was really impressed with 1password's approach and knowledge (10+ years), prior to dropbox integration even but we had ways around that. Then I waited and waited and waited for things like "the windows version" for myself at times and my users who are window's based. The development of 1password.com renewed my spark, but I'm still waiting due to usability (although I still use heavily when appropriate). We have evolved past a need for competency in low-level security capabilities and understanding, and we need better usability, cross-platform functionality with consistent capabilities.
All that and I still use it for a subset of my needs, recommend it to a few who it works for, and keep hoping better stuff comes sooner rather than later.
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My comment previous comment wasn't about "security risk" or "security advantages" as mentioned by brenty. It was intended to communicate the need for better usability, given the level of importance placed in 1password when managing large amounts of diverse information. My example was only to communicate the importance 1password has evolved to, and without 1password our hands are tied. But as is, using it is a struggle. It simply boils down to the problem of usability, manageability, etc, while enabling immediate access to a single piece of information, at a given point in time, among large combinations of diverse information types within 1password.
@Bryan: Thanks for clearing that up for me. You mentioned security a few times there, so I misunderstood your concern. I agree that usability is an issue, and that we need to do better in that area for files in 1Password. Thank you!
Related to usability, and an extension of this thread, are things like improved searching. e.g. one can't even search for content in a decent way, let alone search within something like note. Try finding something in a note, a single piece of information buried in 1 of 100 notes, each note a page or two long. The only way is to visual search of each one. It's like finding a string somewhere on one of 100 sheets of paper. A simple search would be nice (both for and within), and the ability to do regex search would be awesome. OR a search finds an ssh-key, but the associative back reference is gone. I could go on an on really...
It's really problematic (if not completely infeasible) for 1Password to search within files. They have to be decrypted fully for that to even be possible, and 1Password would need to understand their format. At that point, you might as well just open them in the appropriate app and search there, since they're no longer encrypted anyway. I do understand the desire, but it's not something that's within reach at this time.
You can, however, search within 1Password's own data structures by using the "Search All Fields" option. That will include text within a Secure Note, for example. It would be better to be able to find information within the item at that point, to take you right to the relevant text. Not something 1Password can do today (the really useful text APIs for this do not work in secure fields), but hopefully we can find a way in the future.
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Good news for me (sort of): in the meantime, I discovered that if I download the Mac app from 1Password.com, instead of directly from the Mac app store, I can actually maintain vaults stored in 1Password plus another one in iCloud. The latter allows attachments to be handled as in v6 (i.e. properly!). This might actually work from me, while I wait for some improvements to the way Documents are currently handled...
@pricardo: In case it helps you or anyone else, that's possible with the Mac App Store version too. It just requires that it be setup with a 1Password account initially. Local vaults are just an advanced feature in Preferences.
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Being able to use simple attachments (which is really a UX issue, not an underlying architectural issue) is not a security issue. It's a deciding-whether-I-can-stand-to-keep-using-this-product issue when there are alternative products that just make life simpler in this regard.
@ctpublic: Fair enough. I agree that there's room for improvement. :)
Literally, the reason I switched to 1Password from LastPass (because neither has a security advantage over the other, after having studied the way both implement encryption, which is far and away my number 1 priority because I have deep knowledge in this arena), is because the browser add-ins seemed less intrusive and the UI on the desktop app felt more polished. I just aesthetically liked the 1Password app better, and the browser experience was a little bit smoother. So you get points for dressing sharp and combing your hair nice.
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully we can win you over with improvements in other areas as well.
However; the browser experience on the Mac is still super smooth, but on Windows there seems to be a long delay now between picking a set of credentials from the list and the credentials getting populated into the username/password boxes on the page. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to respond to the click at all. I experience this across multiple Windows machines.
That's really beyond the scope of this discussion, but we'll be revamping 1Password mini on Windows in a future update to add additional features and improve usability. Nothing available currently, but I know the rest of the team working on the Windows version would love to hear your input, especially if you're participating in the beta. But we're happy to hear from you either way. :)
And the whole issue of having to create a document for each and every little attachment then go to the record you want to link to the documents from, and then search for the documents, ugh... It's such a pain that I literally contemplate alternatives when it occurs to me that I would like to attach a file. How much more onerous could you folks have made it? Not much, I say. Seriously, it's just awful. It was a terrible design decision.
You're thinking about it backwards. We had to start somewhere. So rather than us intentionally making it hard for you, we just haven't yet added a lot of slick UI to streamline the process. But you're absolutely right: while there's certainly room for improvement in the Mac app as well, the new Windows app is behind in this regard. We've got a lot of work there to add things like an option to upload a new Document (and automatically link it) right within an exiting item. I can't say when that will be ready, but it's something we'd rather like to have to make it easier for ourselves too. I'm sorry for the hassle that causes you.
It's pretty clear from the discussion here that other technically proficient people feel the same way. Your product is literally pushing a subset of your customers who are NOT technically illiterate people to look longingly at alternatives. The current solution is just not good. Sorry, but it isn't. If that's the case for users like me, what is it like for the vast majority of typical technically semi-literate folks who should be using password managers and whom you would presumably like to sign up as customers?
I'm not sure how to answer that question. The real solution is to flesh out the UI to make it easier to manage files in a way that makes it seamless for users. But we have to be pragmatic: people are asking us for many other features and improvements every day, and we do need to prioritize the things that have the greatest impact on the most people. I'm sorry that we haven't gotten to this yet, but it's on our radar too, since we're using 1Password every day ourselves. I'm sure we'll have more to share in the future though.
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Thank you @brenty!
I've been playing a lot with 1Password 7 during the last few hours and I realise the effort you guys put into this release; which makes it then hard to read complaints from guys like me.
But the way Documents are handled is really not good at the moment and I am sure you can improve (a lot).
I understand that it might be good for some users to be able to dump documents in the Documents area and then link them from some other secure item. However, the current implementation is very cumbersome:- If I add a document to an item, this gets added to the Documents;
- If I add multiple documents to the same item, all of them get added to the Documents;
- Then if I delete that item, all those documents that were added to it, still remain "orphan", lost in the Documents section!
- Also, when I go to an item and then select to view an attachment that I added, I am taken to another item of Document type and have to navigate back to my item: this is annoying in iOS, where I have to press the back button a few times; but it's much worse in the Mac app as I could not even find a back button and I need to search the original item to go back to it (could be that I just miss it...).
In my opinion a much better implementation would be something like this:
- If I add any attachment to an item, that attachment should exist only in the context of that item (as in v6).
- Still, if someone wants to add a document and link it back, fine: but then the document is like an isolated item that is just linked to another item - if that other item is deleted, then the link should go but the document remain (as in v7).
- Additionally, unless a document was explicitly added as such, it should not be indexed and appear in the searches. Meaning Documents would be indexed but attachments not.
This would keep the best of both worlds and, in my opinion, is much more intuitive. Basically there would be a distinction between a document (added into Documents) and attachments to an item. If the user still wants to add to an item a link to a document, then fine: the current implementation would work fine; but for all other attachments, they should behave just like that - attachments; meaning that if I delete the container item, they should be gone too.
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It's really problematic (if not completely infeasible) for 1Password to search within files. They have to be decrypted fully for that to even be possible, and 1Password would need to understand their format. At that point, you might as well just open them in the appropriate app and search there, since they're no longer encrypted anyway. I do understand the desire, but it's not something that's within reach at this time.
Agreed on documents in general. All my "documents" are mostly notes and text files (ssh keys, markdown docs, generic text etc), so when I reference that that's what I mean. Albeit, I have images stored as documents to, but clearly one can't search images. But even the vast majority of documents in proprietary formats could be handled. The 80/20 rule really. e.g. google will index contents of microsoft word and spreadsheet docs when stored in good drive. But I'd be happy with being able to do what the OSX app does with text docs in 1password.com.
You can, however, search within 1Password's own data structures by using the "Search All Fields" option. That will include text within a Secure Note, for example. It would be better to be able to find information within the item at that point, to take you right to the relevant text. Not something 1Password can do today (the really useful text APIs for this do not work in secure fields), but hopefully, we can find a way in the future.
True in the app (at least the osx app), not true in 1password.com. I've been doing searching on fields and within text docs for years in the app, along with linking docs (the main purpose of this thread). With 1password lacking linking and searching, it's a big drawback. It will be really nice when 1password achieves that functionality, or dare I say become "usable."
Noting; given the gist of this thread is about 1password.com, my context of "what's not working or could be better" is tied to 1password.com. It just boils down to; give me the functionality and usability of the OSX app, on 1password.com eliminating platform dependence, enabling teams, etc, and I'll be happy. And I actually have faith you'll get there, it's just a matter of how much longer in time. All other is relatively minor and outside the scope of this discussion.
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I've been playing a lot with 1Password 7 during the last few hours and I realise the effort you guys put into this release; which makes it then hard to read complaints from guys like me.
@pricardo: Well, I would characterize it as constructive criticism, so thank you. We are really proud of what we've already made with 1Password, but there's always room for improvement. :)
But the way Documents are handled is really not good at the moment and I am sure you can improve (a lot). I understand that it might be good for some users to be able to dump documents in the Documents area and then link them from some other secure item. However, the current implementation is very cumbersome:
- If I add a document to an item, this gets added to the Documents;
- If I add multiple documents to the same item, all of them get added to the Documents;
- Then if I delete that item, all those documents that were added to it, still remain "orphan", lost in the Documents section!
I think it's important that the Documents themselves don't go away just because you delete/move an item which is linked to them, but I agree that it's difficult to manage these scenarios, and that we need to do better here.
Also, when I go to an item and then select to view an attachment that I added, I am taken to another item of Document type and have to navigate back to my item: this is annoying in iOS, where I have to press the back button a few times; but it's much worse in the Mac app as I could not even find a back button and I need to search the original item to go back to it (could be that I just miss it...).
Agreed.
In my opinion a much better implementation would be something like this:
- If I add any attachment to an item, that attachment should exist only in the context of that item (as in v6).
That's an interesting idea, but it's confusing to have multiple ways of working with files in the account, and specifically that reintroduces a long-standing problem with our original (local vault, pre-1Password membership) file attachments scheme, which we got complaints on for about a decade. I can definitely appreciate that this may be useful from the perspective of adding the files in the first place, and accessing them in certain cases, but then we're right back to having problems with sync and needing to create dummy items just to add a file, etc. I'd rather find a good way to combine some of the useful things from the old "attachments" setup with the new Documents setup without bringing back the downsides of the former.
- Still, if someone wants to add a document and link it back, fine: but then the document is like an isolated item that is just linked to another item - if that other item is deleted, then the link should go but the document remain (as in v7).
That makes more sense to me, which is why I think the UI is what needs to be considered most.
- Additionally, unless a document was explicitly added as such, it should not be indexed and appear in the searches. Meaning Documents would be indexed but attachments not.
That I can't agree with at all. I think it would be helpful if we expand search capabilities to allow people to filter out what they don't want, like this example. But doing what you describe would result in it being harder for people to find the files, since they'd need to preemptively consider that adding an "attachment" would make it unsearchable. We don't want people "losing" items because they're missing in search.
This would keep the best of both worlds and, in my opinion, is much more intuitive. Basically there would be a distinction between a document (added into Documents) and attachments to an item. If the user still wants to add to an item a link to a document, then fine: the current implementation would work fine; but for all other attachments, they should behave just like that - attachments; meaning that if I delete the container item, they should be gone too.
I think the distinction adds additional complexity and confusion. One of the things people are most confused about when switching to a 1Password membership is that files become Documents instead of "attachments". But while I think we need to do better there too, that is something people can learn an adjust to, because "accounts use Documents instead of attachments" -- its a simple rule. It would be even more confusing if both exist, and people need to navigate the differences. So I do think that presentation will be the key.
Anyway, you do raise a lot of good points, and we'll continue to discuss this and feedback from others to determine what changes could be most beneficial to 1Password users in the future. Thanks for taking the time to share your perspective. :)
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Agreed on documents in general. All my "documents" are mostly notes and text files (ssh keys, markdown docs, generic text etc), so when I reference that that's what I mean. Albeit, I have images stored as documents to, but clearly one can't search images. But even the vast majority of documents in proprietary formats could be handled. The 80/20 rule really. e.g. google will index contents of microsoft word and spreadsheet docs when stored in good drive. But I'd be happy with being able to do what the OSX app does with text docs in 1password.com.
@Bryan: Just keep in mind that in order for that to even be possible (assuming that 1Password understood the data structures of 80% of all file types, which is not only a stretch but risky from a security perspective, unless we're writing our own parsers for all of these), 1Password would need to decrypt all of this data "on the fly" in order for it to be usable for searching...and when we're talking about potentially large files (an account comes with 1GB), performance becomes an issue too.
True in the app (at least the osx app), not true in 1password.com. I've been doing searching on fields and within text docs for years in the app, along with linking docs (the main purpose of this thread). With 1password lacking linking and searching, it's a big drawback. It will be really nice when 1password achieves that functionality, or dare I say become "usable."
We don't have the benefit of these kinds of APIs in the browser that are available to native apps, but I do hope we can expand the functionality of the web app in the future as well. Most of our time and effort is going to go into the native apps though because that's what most people use.
Noting; given the gist of this thread is about 1password.com, my context of "what's not working or could be better" is tied to 1password.com. It just boils down to; give me the functionality and usability of the OSX app, on 1password.com eliminating platform dependence, enabling teams, etc, and I'll be happy. And I actually have faith you'll get there, it's just a matter of how much longer in time. All other is relatively minor and outside the scope of this discussion.
I hear you. I'd like that too. But we need to be realistic. The web is a very different beast, and we do need to focus our efforts on the native apps most since they get the most use day to day. I don't see your dream coming true in the near term. And the web app will almost certainly always be less capable than a native app by virtue of the platform and what is (and is not) available there. It's something we'll continue to work at though, because, ultimately, we'd like to have the best 1Password experience everywhere as much as possible. :)
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It's the first day of my trial and I must say disappearance of attachments in favor of documents and "related entries" in items is a show stopper. I will have to revert to v6 :(
I've been 1Password user since the times it used OS X Keychain for storage, and loved all the iterations of it up until this version that destroyed attachments (at least for account-based vaults).
I had many items with item-specific attachments: passports, driver license, various tax-related secure notes. These were migrated as a bunch of documents with weird titles paired to secure notes/items that are now "attachmentless". UX of dealing with them is not simple any more.
I know the goal is to make documents searchable. But why can't we have both. I don't care if attachments are not searchable. I know what to do: I look for the item and find the pertinent attachments in it with ease.
Also, at no point in time since I've been user of 1Password, had I ever even considered how nice it would be to have item-specific files (like passport photos or some other material) to live outside of items and be navigable directly instead of via items. Because I don't think it's a natural way to deal with it.
I bet users like myself are an outlier (since we were there before the advent of attachments and then grew to love and overuse them) and majority of new subscription-based users don't know and don't care about attachments. So I understand why the old attachment UX was not prioritized.
I'll patiently wait for some improved UI workflows around documents and some sort of concept of compound items (items that have other items).
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Hi @p4x4n
I've been 1Password user since the times it used OS X Keychain for storage
Thanks for sticking with us through the years. :)
I'm sorry to hear you feel Documents are not well suited for your use case. To be clear though, reverting to v6 won't help (and may hurt). The question isn't v6 vs v7, it is membership vs standalone. If you are willing to give up the benefits of membership to have attachments as you're used to them you'd need to revert to standalone:
How to move your data to a standalone vault to use 1Password without an account
You'll want to stay with 1Password 7 though, as v6 has been retired and will no longer be updated. We'd always recommend keeping up to date with the latest versions of all of your software, but especially 1Password, your operating system, and your web browser. You will need a 1Password 7 for Mac license which can be purchased in the app after following the above guide.
All of that said I do think there are a lot of advantages that come with Documents as well as membership in general that you're going to lose by reverting to standalone. I'd strongly recommend giving it some time and seeing if it is something you can acclimate to.
Ben
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@p4x4n - we've switched from using our own store to sell standalone licenses to using FastSpring, if that's what you mean. But I don't think that's the issue here. For several years, a license as old as 1Password 4 for Mac would allow you to license versions 5 and also 6 (and will still do that!). But if you plan to install and use 1Password 7 for Mac, then it will indeed require either a 1password.com account or the purchase of a new license for the new version. If this is your situation, every item in 1Password should have a Read Only badge on it, and clicking that badge should bring you to the Purchase Options screen where you can purchase a standalone license by clicking the link that says "Need a license? We have those too":
Hope that helps! :)0 -
@Lars sorry, I wasn't specific enough in my previous reply. It appears that as of v7 that you only offer single user license, but I need a multiuser license, which rules out standalone v7 for my family at this point.
I was willing to consider the membership, but during the trial of family membership account, I found that the changes around storage of attachments messed up many of our 1password items that had attachments when they were imported into 1password account vaults.
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I'm sorry to hear you had trouble during your trial. If you'd like we'd be interested in troubleshooting whatever difficulties you may have had. I'd recommend starting a new thread though, so we can keep this one on the subject of requested improvements.
Ben
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I just learned that I could link items; and in the process noticed the orphaned notes/attachments--makes sense now. Would it be possible to add a dialog option "do you want to create a 2-way link?". If possible, this may reduce the amount of orphaned files...
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If I add any attachment to an item, that attachment should exist only in the context of that item
We are using Teams and stopped adding files. We used to add license files, certificates etc but the name of these files is in no way interesting and only useful in context with the item we created and added them with. I think this is the way it should be when adding a file to an record. Otherwise i would add the file as a record.
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just stumbled on a thing with attachments on my private account; when moving a record to another vault it looses the connection with files i originally imported in a record. In this example it is a bill for software that i have attached to the license record. Still not seeing why this attachment has become its own record in stead of staying a attachment. 04559453.pdf seems not worthy off its own record, definitely a attachment kind of file...
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I have mixed emotions about this thread, since I raised this and similar issues in another thread (transferring documents between vaults).
I am sad in the this discussion is till ongoing. Happy in that I am not alone being unhappy with how 1p7 handles documents and records.
Maybe I am making things harder for myself, but this is my scenario in which the current systems fails in a major way:
I keep all records in my vault.
Copy my spouse's records and my critical records into the shared vault. I do this for my protection incase my spouse get a case of fumble fingers.
I also copy records into my travel vault so when we travel, I just activate the 'travel' feature. I usually keep these records static unless I need to update them for some reason (new passport, license, etc.)
As 1p7 currently exists, in addition to copying the records, I have to RE-LINK (in both directions) the documents to their records in each vault (shared and travel). I then have RE-DOWNLOAD the linked documents so they are viewable.
This is cumbersome and much more difficult than it should be.
There is much room for improvement.
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@AJH2 - Documents are not attachments. They share some similarities, and in 1password.com accounts, they replaced the older-style of direct attachments to individual items that existed in standalone 1Password...but they are different. It depends a little on whether you're trying to move items from the web interface of 1password.com or in one of the native 1Password apps, but the bottom line is the same: you will lose links to existing Documents when you move them. If you move an item with attachments in a standalone vault into a 1password.com account vault, the attachments will not be imported and you will have to move those separately (they will be converted to Documents and linked, if you use Add New File).
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