What breaks (that I am doing now) if I continue to use Dropbox sync?
I have sets of macOS and iOS devices that should be upgraded from 1Password 6 to 1Password 7. So far, my impression from the 1Password web site is that 1Password 7 is wonderful and solves almost all the world's problems. But there is no clear explanation if migration away from Dropbox is really necessary. What are the consequences of continuation of the current configuration and simply upgrading to 1Password 7?
In principle, I don't object to a subscription model for 1Password. I just object to the vague handwaving I perceive on migration issues and best practices for the same. To top that, your Knowledge Base article How to sync 1Password with Dropbox says, "If you don’t want the benefits of a 1Password membership, you can sync multiple standalone vaults with Dropbox."
Do I really have to sacrifice the benefits of a 1Password membership to continue using Dropbox? What will break? Should I just stay with 1Password 6 until it is broken by Apple?
Why does 1Password not have a "User's Manual" that I can use instead of having to repeatedly search the forum, FAQ, and Knowledge base pages -- a process which does net lend itself to retaining context because of getting only snippets of knowledge at each look. Your directed support is excellent, but the time spent trying to learn about the product by internet browsing page after page of entries in no coherent order is daunting. The gestalt never seems to happen.
After several happy years of working with 1Password, future compromising of function and reliability because of ignorance is to be avoided. How can this be accomplished?
1Password Version: 6.8.9
Extension Version: 4.7.1
OS Version: macOS 10.13.4, 10.13.5
Sync Type: Dropbox
Comments
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Hey @xz4gb8! That's a great question. In general, 1Password 7 is great whether you buy it with a license or use a 1Password membership. The cool thing about a membership, though, is that it includes all the 1Password apps. That means you don't have to worry about paid upgrades in the future – just check for updates and you'll get the latest version that's compatible with your device.
You can use 1Password on your computer, phone, tablet, or even a browser. Everything automatically syncs between all the devices you end up adding, and versions of your items that are backed up automatically so you can restore one if you make a change by mistake. There's a lot more too:
What are the benefits of a 1Password membership?
I mentioned this in another thread, and I think it applies here too:
We're offering a subscription as an an alternative for folks who prefer to organize everything in one nice place and not worry about syncing it between their devices. This has been a challenge from the start with 1Password, and we finally decided to do something about it with the concept of an account. The only thing is, accounts have to be stored somewhere, and storage in the cloud is a recurring bill. Subscriptions fit that perfectly.
The apps, on the other hand, are the core of 1Password. They make it a unique password manager, because most others out there use browser extensions and websites primarily. We believe in having a native experience, and we don't want that to go away anytime soon. Lots of our users, too, are using 1Password because they prefer the standalone experience, not a cloud-based one. That's totally fine — to each their own. And you can keep using things just as you always have.
I hope that provides a bit of background on the decision. It wasn't easy. We had to consider what people really needed, and what we got lots of emails about. So many people had trouble with sync, no matter how we boxed it up or made it easier, that a unified experience with an account was just the best option at the end of the day. It's okay if that doesn't fit you — you have a very good idea of what you're looking for. :) Don’t let the subscription get in your way.
To answer your other questions:
Why does 1Password not have a "User's Manual" that I can use instead of having to repeatedly search the forum, FAQ, and Knowledge base pages -- a process which does net lend itself to retaining context because of getting only snippets of knowledge at each look. Your directed support is excellent, but the time spent trying to learn about the product by internet browsing page after page of entries in no coherent order is daunting. The gestalt never seems to happen.
We used to have a user manual, and we moved past it because a knowledge base is a better experience for most people. We also found that the user manual was too detailed and as a consequence it went out of date faster than it should have. As much as we wanted to keep it updated and sparkly, there was always other stuff to do. A knowledge base gives the best of both worlds: indexed guides on using 1Password, and cool tips and tricks in there as well – we even have videos now! :sunglasses:
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Thanks, Jacob.
I'll go and look at the recent forum entries and possibly look for a video describing conversion from 1Password6 to 1Password7 retaining existing settings.
Wow. I just looked the Mac postings for the last week. My head is spinning.
Many of the replies from agilebits in the week worth of entries viewed seem to imply that, if I subscribe (which I don't really object to) I must use the agilebits sync server and if I want to continue without changing settings, I must buy standalone licenses. This conflicts with your comments above.
My comment implying hide and seek for transition information has not so far been refuted.
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You COULD subscribe and still use Dropbox sync, but you would be losing most of the advantages.
When you move to an (individual) subscription you will get a Personal vault. You will also get a Primary vault, which is carried over from your old version.
The Primary vault can be synced with Dropbox, but the Personal vault automatically syncs using 1password.com
There is really no good reason for using Dropbox to sync, as 1password.com syncing is designed specifically for your vault, and has features beyond what Dropbox can provide.
Most of us simply transfer our passwords from Primary to Personal and delete Primary after a while.
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@xz4gb8: I'm not sure what you're referring to. 1Password 7 is a direct upgrade to 1Password 6. They both work with local vaults and accounts the same way. So there really isn't a "transition" involved. The only transition would be if you move to a subscription from a license, but that's not a new 1Password 7 thing, and we have a guide for that. If you need help with something in particular though, please let us know.
We definitely recommend using 1Password.com vaults if you use a 1Password.com account since soaring the encrypted data there is what enables many of the features of memberships, but you can totally use local vaults alongside those or instead. That's just what most people sign up for 1Password.com memberships to get away from though, so it isn't something we encourage. If you need help with that though, I'll be happy to answer any questions you have. :)
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Well, with much trepidation I converted a group of devices to 1Password 7 and Subscription.
The first comment is, "Why don't you have a BUY button on your site -- I don't want to "Try 1Password Free". I finally found the right spot to click to begin a family subscription. I never saw a direct reference to what amount I would be billed. It certainly would have been helpful if the consequences of each step was made clear before stepping. Only spending much time on the forum entries helped me to wend my agile way to success. And the funny thing is that the process is really simple. Only figuring out the process is complicated. It is different enough from all previous upgrades that doing what would seem reasonable would have caused problems. For all previous 1P updates, I simply installed the App and opened the vault. Switching to a Subscription and AgileCloud sync is not amenable to this approach. And the constant noise of pushing the subscription in liu of possible dire consequences was not only bothersome, but misleading. It is apparent that one could continue using Dropbox or the like for vault synchronization, at least on macOS, even using a subscription. Concerns just about this issue delayed the update by many weeks.
I do appreciate the QR code setup for the iDevices.
I am working with another who previously abandoned 1Password to migrate his encrypted store to 1Password/Subscription for 3 Macs and 2 iPhones. In several discussions earlier, he also complained about not find a BUY button. He suggested Boxcryptor. I told him that I would absorb the subscription cost if he would try 1Password and then found it wanting. The simple argument revolved around editing conflicts common to file sharing without locking and the resulting sync conflicts. So, that transition has begun with my personal transfer of data from files to 1Password objects for about 25% of his data. I've turned the results over to him for evaluation.
And, back to the user manual (again) -- It was only by accident that I found out about simultaneous logins from the 1Password applications from a post by an enthusiastic user typically logged in to 4 accounts. I used this to transfer contents from a locally created vault to the "new" users Private vault. I had had visions of exporting and importing data as in Contacts or Calendars until I stumbled on the easy solution.
Technically, you guys are excellent. Communications needs to be made more coherent.
Marketing lacks technical information* and simple useful-to-users things like a place to BUY.
*Technical information, e.g., Supports vault sharing to both guests (simple sharing) and by using multiple logins on one instance of 1Password (complex sharing).[After submitting this post, I just found a reference to a June 13 article "Move your existing 1Password data to a 1Password account" which would have been quite helpful.]
You should ask Joe Kissell to update to 1Password 7 in his Take Control book. Maybe that would bring together some of this scattered information and hints without increasing your support budget.
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Why don't you have a BUY button on your site -- I don't want to "Try 1Password Free".
All 1password.com memberships come with a 30-day free trial. That's just part of the package. If you went through the process, you saw the option to add credit card for payment. I appreciate you wanting to just go ahead and BUY as you put it, but 1password.com isn't a "buy now" kind of item. It's an ongoing subscription and it does come with 30 days free for those who want to try before they buy.
I finally found the right spot to click to begin a family subscription.
Can you give me a URL (and maybe some idea of why it was difficult to find)? We don't hide 1Password Families on our website, so I'm surprised to hear it was such a struggle. This link right at the top left of the main https://1password.com site:
...will lead you directly to the 1Password Families main page, which includes (along with one of the buttons to "try it free,") a large price display:
The Pricing page says the same thing: $4.99USD per month if billed annually (which is the default -- you CAN switch to monthly from within your account once it's set up, but that's more expensive since we have to bill you twelve times a year instead of just once).
I don't say this to be confrontational, but rather because it seems to me the pricing is pretty clearly displayed in multiple places, and I'm genuinely curious where or in what specific ways you think things could've been improved/changed....the process is really simple. Only figuring out the process is complicated. It is different enough from all previous upgrades that doing what would seem reasonable would have caused problems.
Can you elaborate a bit? We certainly don't want to be confusing our users or potential new customers, but if you're a previous user who's switching from standalone to a 1password.com membership, and you found the actual process easy, what specifically about figuring it out or how we described it was confusing?
For all previous 1P updates, I simply installed the App and opened the vault. Switching to a Subscription and AgileCloud sync is not amenable to this approach.
Well, right -- that's because your data, in standalone mode, is created locally on your own device and either not synced at all or synced by an advanced sync method of your choice -- and it could be iCloud, Dropbox, WLAN... With 1password.com memberships, WE act as your data host and sync provider, so just "installing the app and opening the vault" doesn't work; you need to sign into your account.
And the constant noise of pushing the subscription in liu of possible dire consequences was not only bothersome, but misleading.
Not sure how you get "misleading." And while it's possible I've missed some of our communication, I don't recall seeing anything warning users of the "dire consequences" of staying with a standalone setup. If we thought there such consequences were endemic to or unavoidable with standalone, we wouldn't continue to offer it as an option. You can indeed continue using 1Password in standalone mode. Heck, this forum is full of people doing exactly so. That said, we make no apologies about continuing to recommend the vast majority of users consider a 1password.com membership precisely because it is more secure, easier to use and more secure (due to the Secret Key's 2SKD - 2-Secret Key Derivation) than any of the advanced manual sync options.
It is apparent that one could continue using Dropbox or the like for vault synchronization, at least on macOS, even using a subscription.
It's possible, but that doesn't mean it's easy or a good idea. To be clear, you can certainly create local, standalone vaults alongside of a 1password.com subscription, but all vaults that are part of a 1password.com membership cannot be synced via Dropbox. If a user chooses a standalone setup, then they don't have a 1password.com account, and all vaults are local and available to be synced via Dropbox or iCloud...but to synchronize your data using ONLY Dropbox with a 1password.com subscription as your payment method, you would have to:
- Subscribe to an individual or 1Password Families account, and pay either monthly or annually
- Sign into your account in 1Password for Mac as part of setup (if you don't do this, your copy of 1Password for Mac will be in Read Only mode because it hasn't been paid for. A 1password.com membership includes all our apps, but you have to sign into the account for the app to recognize you're authorized to use it. If you don't sign into your account in 1Password for Mac, you'd have to purchase a standalone license, which would kind of defeat the point of paying for a membership.)
- Enable standalone (local vaults) in Preferences
- Sync your standalone vault(s) manually via Dropbox
- Never use your 1password.com vaults, even though they would remain visible/usable within the app.
We have a path for people who want to use standalone, local data and manual sync (or no sync), and another path for people who want 1password.com memberships -- what isn't possible is opening a 1password.com membership and syncing your 1password.com vaults via Dropbox/iCloud.
I do appreciate the QR code setup for the iDevices.
Or even other Macs/PCs. Glad you liked it!
The simple argument revolved around editing conflicts common to file sharing without locking and the resulting sync conflicts.
Indeed, this is also part of our own argument surrounding Dropbox and iCloud: they are third-party APIs that are (obviously) not built exclusively with 1Password in mind, which we don't control. The likelihood and prevalence of just the type of sync errors you mention are, no matter how careful we are with our own interface with those more-generic 3rd party APIs, simply much higher than with the purpose-built, custom sync engine we can deploy on 1password.com when we control both how the local apps you use operate AND how the server behaves. I hope your conversion went well and your friend enjoys what you did for him -- send him our way if he has any questions or issues.
It was only by accident that I found out about simultaneous logins from the 1Password applications from a post by an enthusiastic user typically logged in to 4 accounts. I used this to transfer contents from a locally created vault to the "new" users Private vault. I had had visions of exporting and importing data as in Contacts or Calendars until I stumbled on the easy solution.
I'm sorry you had to stumble! That information is right here on our support pages, and it's discoverable by typing the words "move items" (or any of several other terms) into the search bar at https://support.1password.com . Can you give me an idea of what would have made that less difficult for you?
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"... 1password.com isn't a "buy now" kind of item. ..."
Me:
This is an unwarranted assumption about how others may do business. In my case it certainly was a "buy now" decision and I am currently endeavoring to convince another of the correctness of that decision for him. I would compare this to buying a car where I have picked the make, model, color, trim, and etc. and just want to get price and availability and close the deal if these are acceptable. Being bombarded with how wonderful a particular model is is not even a topic for conversation"Can you give me a URL (and maybe some idea of why it was difficult to find)? We don't hide 1Password Families on our website, so I'm surprised to hear it was such a struggle. This link right at the top left of the main https://1password.com site:
...will lead you directly to the 1Password Families main page, which includes (along with one of the buttons to 'try it free,') a large price display:
The Pricing page says the same thing: $4.99USD per month if billed annually (which is the default -- you CAN switch to monthly from within your account once it's set up, but that's more expensive since we have to bill you twelve times a year instead of just once).
I don't say this to be confrontational, but rather because it seems to me the pricing is pretty clearly displayed in multiple places, and I'm genuinely curious where or in what specific ways you think things could've been improved/changed."Me:
The image you posted accurately makes my point. I already knew the price per month. It tries to persuade me to 'try it for free'. I have a business purpose -- that is to procure a 1Password 7 family subscription, not to take a test drive (see above). To any literal-minded engineer, the entreaty to 'try it for free' just gets in the way of the procurement process. And I should not have to calculate the annual cost of a subscription if that is the normal term. Financial decisions for this sort of product tend to be long-term decisions -- years, not weeks."Can you elaborate a bit? We certainly don't want to be confusing our users or potential new customers, but if you're a previous user who's switching from standalone to a 1password.com membership, and you found the actual process easy, what specifically about figuring it out or how we described it was confusing?"
Me:
Until I discovered the June 13 (or so) article today, I had not found the data movement so simply and clearly explained. And since at least one of agilebitfolk has repeatedly implied dire consequences for not subscribing. Try to imagine my trepidation in updating my own systems in order to assist other less tech-savvy folk with 1Password."... With 1password.com memberships, WE act as your data host and sync provider, so just "installing the app and opening the vault" doesn't work; you need to sign into your account."
Me:
Right. First, YACDS* to deal with. And the real advantage is not AgileBitsCloud itself. But rather, it is the closer coupling of the distributed data stores with the 'Cloud-based Truth'. Based mostly on past experience, I do expect that replication reliability will increase over syncing a vault via Dropbox or iCloud. Primarily because this is your core business as differing from scattered iCloud businesses, for example.
*YACDS == Yet Another Cloud Data StoreMe:
Second. 'just installing the app and opening the vault doesn't work; you need to sign into your account.' is misleading. 1P can and does work with on-my-mac vaults synced by other means. You have said so yourself (see above)."It's possible [ to could continue using Dropbox or the like for vault synchronization], but that doesn't mean it's easy or a good idea."
Me:
Never said it was a good idea. My experience is that the on-my-mac vault from pre-subscription days is essentially left unmodified by 1P - as it should be. That vault is only deleted upon my request. Of course, a standalone 1P instance behaves the same way.Me (from previous note):
The simple argument revolved around editing conflicts common to file sharing without locking and the resulting sync conflicts."Indeed, this is also part of our own argument surrounding Dropbox and iCloud: they are third-party APIs that are (obviously) not built exclusively with 1Password in mind, which we don't control. The likelihood and prevalence of just the type of sync errors you mention are, no matter how careful we are with our own interface with those more-generic 3rd party APIs, simply much higher than with the purpose-built, custom sync engine we can deploy on 1password.com when we control both how the local apps you use operate AND how the server behaves."
Me:
Now that is the kind of technical talk that makes sense to an engineer. Much better that a free trial. You actually are offering a cogent argument for a 1Password subscription using positive terms instead of implying dire consequences of standalone usage. Please try to do that some more.I hope your conversion went well and your friend enjoys what you did for him -- send him our way if he has any questions or issues.
Me:
I think that I will continue to be his designated target and vendor buffer. I have been in that position for decades."I'm sorry you had to stumble! That information is right here on our support pages, and it's discoverable by typing the words "move items" (or any of several other terms) into the search bar at https://support.1password.com . Can you give me an idea of what would have made that less difficult for you?"
Me:
That is an easy question to answer. I have been following the 1Password forum (Mac) for years and looking particularly at Version 7/Subscription for months. I did discover the article today by typing move items" and found the mid-June article. This is exactly the kind of "User's Manual" contents I have been prodding youall about.Try this thought experiment: Pretend that 1Password and Subscription are tools or gadgets you want to sell. How heavy is the hammer? Is the wrench set metric or SAE? Are the screwdrivers magnetic? Are the tips hardened? Do they come in a nice package. Are there recommended service intervals for the motor? Does the tape drive auto-rewind? What are the dimensions and the electronic pin-outs. How much power does it use. Now, make me design glossy that will essentially have me designing your tool or gadget into my processes or products before I put it down. Give me enough hard information to do that so I don't have to search all over. I don't have the time or patience to do that.
The bottom line is that we, your users, need to clearly understand the business impact of changing tools or tool versions. Knowing that a subscription to 1Password and using Version 7 will cure acne and increase libido is simply not enough information. 1Password has been and continues to be a gift that keeps giving. Playing hide and seek for application information is not a popular game with engineers. 1Password should get the marketing support it deserves.
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Thanks for the feedback! But I think it's important to note though that most users are not engineers, and if we market 1Password the way you propose we'd just be alienating many more people — and arguably those are the folks that need approachable security most. Getting to try something for free before spending money is also really important to most people.
Talk of APIs can definitely benefit having a one-on-one conversation like this here, but we have to keep in mind that not everyone knows or cares about that when it comes to presenting sign up and pricing options to everyone who visits out site and uses our apps. And it really isn't feasible to have multiple websites and multiple apps for each potential audience. Not saying your wrong to want this kind of information. We're happy to provide it, and that's what this forum is for: discussions just like this one. :chuffed:
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Well, I still think a "Buy Now" button would not be offensive and would make lots of CDO* types happier.
And technical data could still be available on a sub-page which is findable by those interested.
I subscribed anyway and did manage to figure out where the product interface does not match the expectations set by the sparse detail provided.
- "CDO" is the OCD person's spelling of "OCD".
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It's something we can consider. Anyway, glad to hear that you were able to get things setup the way you want. And we're here if you have questions about anything else. Cheers! :)
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