1PW7 - Considering move from license to membership but have questions

bud

I was just about to upgrade from 1PW6 to 1PW7 and switch to a membership from a standalone license, but I can't find the details I need in the descriptions of the products on your web site. I currently share vaults with 4 others (not in my physical household) via dropbox shared folders. If I were to switch to a membership or a family account it appears that the other users I'm sharing with would also have to move to the same version and type of license. Is that correct? If so, I guess I'll have to stick with an individual license because I cannot dictate to the others what they must do.

With a membership how does sharing work? I currently have 4 different vaults and share 1 with 1 person, another with 3 people, and 2 are my own, but this configuration will change over time. Could I still accomplish this if all users had memberships?

Also, if I understand correctly, switching to a membership means that I would have yet another cloud data store (from agile bits) which I do not find appealing. I prefer to have a minimal number of cloud accounts/stores and would prefer to just stick with Dropbox. I like the other features of the membership product, but I don't see the need for the agile bits cloud syncing and storage. If I do change my mind down the road, where is the local copy of the vault kept when you use the membership product? I would want to be sure that my Crash Plan for Small Business backup is catching it too. (I do not back up the entire HD to Crash Plan.) With the Dropbox approach I know exactly where my local Mac copy of the vault is stored and can easily move it around as I see fit. (My iMac is always the master for everything I do with MacBook, iPhone and iPad syncing of various data through Dropbox or Google Drive or sometimes but rarely iCloud).

I sent an email to support last week asking for help to revert to v6 after starting down the upgrade process to v7. I did not receive a response, but I did figure out how to get v7 removed and v6 reinstalled until I can get answers to my questions.

Thanks!

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1Password Version: 6.8.9
Extension Version: 4.7.1
OS Version: macOS 10.13.5
Sync Type: Dropbox

AGAlumB

I was just about to upgrade from 1PW6 to 1PW7 and switch to a membership from a standalone license, but I can't find the details I need in the descriptions of the products on your web site. I currently share vaults with 4 others (not in my physical household) via dropbox shared folders. If I were to switch to a membership or a family account it appears that the other users I'm sharing with would also have to move to the same version and type of license. Is that correct? If so, I guess I'll have to stick with an individual license because I cannot dictate to the others what they must do.

@bud: Indeed, even if you could make that decision for others, arguably you shouldn't. Fortunately there are two really cool options that may help avoid all of that unpleasantness:

• Make them want it: No, I'm not talking about doing anything shady like brainwashing; but if you signed up for a 1Password Families (or Teams/Business) account and invited them, you'd be paying and they'd get a lot of great stuff for free: access to all of the apps, seamless syncing, offsite backup, and intra-account sharing and recovery. And, if you only need to share a single vault with them, you can invite them as guests.
• Keep using Dropbox to share with them: While it isn't something we recommend since it complicates things, you can use local vaults right alongside a 1Password.com account and sync those via Dropbox. So, not much different from what you're doing now, except you'll also get all the benefits of a 1Password.com membership for yourself.

With a membership how does sharing work? I currently have 4 different vaults and share 1 with 1 person, another with 3 people, and 2 are my own, but this configuration will change over time. Could I still accomplish this if all users had memberships?

Yep! That's one of the main reasons we built 1Password.com, because this needed to be much easier to manage. You basically just create a vault, and then you have a list of people in your account whom you can grant access to it, or not:

Create and share vaults

Simple and secure. :)

Also, if I understand correctly, switching to a membership means that I would have yet another cloud data store (from agile bits) which I do not find appealing. I prefer to have a minimal number of cloud accounts/stores and would prefer to just stick with Dropbox. I like the other features of the membership product, but I don't see the need for the agile bits cloud syncing and storage. If I do change my mind down the road, where is the local copy of the vault kept when you use the membership product?

1Password.com is the "source of truth" for the encrypted database, to avoid sync conflicts, but you'll have a local copy of it in the apps where you're signed in, and you can move it to a local vault or export at any time.

I would want to be sure that my Crash Plan for Small Business backup is catching it too. (I do not back up the entire HD to Crash Plan.) With the Dropbox approach I know exactly where my local Mac copy of the vault is stored and can easily move it around as I see fit. (My iMac is always the master for everything I do with MacBook, iPhone and iPad syncing of various data through Dropbox or Google Drive or sometimes but rarely iCloud).

That isn't necessary, or useful. 1Password.com automatically backs up all of the encrypted data offsite, including versioning so you can restore a previous version of an item if needed. And, as I mentioned, you can sign into your account and export the data if needed.

I sent an email to support last week asking for help to revert to v6 after starting down the upgrade process to v7. I did not receive a response, but I did figure out how to get v7 removed and v6 reinstalled until I can get answers to my questions.

Sorry about that. :( We've been getting a lot more email than usual (understatement of the year) and haven't been able to get back to everyone yet. It sounds like you're all set in that regard, but please let me know if you have any other questions!

ref: XGM-35321-455

zharikovpro

you can move it to a local vault

I have the same question - how do I convert membership vault to a local, or create a new local one on a Mac / Android / iOS?

That isn't necessary, or useful.

It IS necessary and useful, if you backup/restore/sync system breaks. Cause we cannot check/ensure it's reliability. And trust to a word is not secure/reliable enough. Or should we trust you as much as sending passwords to the sync service in plain text? I don't think so.

Have you ever heard of 3-2-1 backup rule? Your "single source fo truth" is also a "single point of failure", which is a really, really bad idea when we are talking about sensitive data. Please give a convenient way to backup offline what's being synced.

zharikovpro

Also, if I understand correctly, switching to a membership means that I would have yet another cloud data store (from agile bits) which I do not find appealing. I prefer to have a minimal number of cloud accounts/stores and would prefer to just stick with Dropbox.

I share the exact same vision and had a big regret when upgraded from 1p6 to 1p7 and even bought an annual family subscription. I wish I knew in advance that sync (via Dropbox or whatever) and backups at file system level are not possible anymore.

hawkmoth

I wish I knew in advance that sync (via Dropbox or whatever) and backups at file system level are not possible anymore.

Nothing has changed between version 6 and 7, even with a membership, instead of a standalone license. You can still sync by whatever method you have been using, You can sign out of your account (created with the membership) and enable Dropbox or iCloud syncing, just as before. Go to 1Password Preferences. The check the box to allow creation of vaults outside of 1Password accounts. You'll see that doing so will create a Primary vault, which you will sync via Dropbox or iCloud.

AGAlumB

It IS necessary and useful, if you backup/restore/sync system breaks. Cause we cannot check/ensure it's reliability.

@zharikovpro: How do you plan on doing that exactly? It isn't useful because it's impossible to do what you're suggesting. And because it's impossible and other options exist, it's also unnecessary. 1Password.com backs up the encrypted data you store in your account automatically, redundantly, offsite, and the data is also cached locally on any device you authorize. If you want to, you can also export it to an OPVault or 1PIF.

And trust to a word is not secure/reliable enough. Or should we trust you as much as sending passwords to the sync service in plain text? I don't think so.

I don't know what you're talking about here. Can you clarify? 1Password encrypts everything locally regardless of what setup you use; only encrypted data is ever transmitted if and when it's sync'd.

Have you ever heard of 3-2-1 backup rule? Your "single source fo truth" is also a "single point of failure", which is a really, really bad idea when we are talking about sensitive data. Please give a convenient way to backup offline what's being synced.

That's pretty disingenuous. You're taking what I said completely out of context to try to prove your point. This is what I said, which you ignored:

1Password.com is the "source of truth" for the encrypted database, to avoid sync conflicts

The reality is that the "single source of truth" is referring to syncing data. And sync is not a backup. The backup facilities in place are separate from that. So let's move on to talking about actual backup. For reference:

"A 3-2-1 strategy means having at least 3 total copies of your data, 2 of which are local but on different mediums (read: devices), and at least 1 copy offsite."

1Password.com members get most of this "for free" just by using it:

3) three total copies:
2) local copy of the database (which, again, is managed by the server to facilitate sync) managed by 1Password, and another you can manage yourself (e.g. OPVault, 1PIF, or simply copying the database)
1) offsite backup on the server

We recognize that the second part of 2) places some burden on the user, but we don't present 1Password as a turnkey backup solution; it's a password manager with backup features. But we do want to make it easier for people to save additional backups of their data in the future too.

And, as Hawkmoth and many others have mentioned, you can continue using local vaults and syncing them yourself if you really want to. There's nothing stopping you from doing that. I hope this helps clarify things.

zharikovpro

Yes, let's cut out all the noise and move to 3-2-1, which is actually the point.

local copy of the database

Where is it, how I can make a physical offsite copy?

e.g. OPVault, 1PIF, or simply copying the database

Again, how do I do that?

you can continue using local vaults and syncing them yourself if you really want to

I'd like to. This is what I did with 1Password 6. There is one thing stopping me from doing it now: I have no such option in the app. Was unable to find anywhere in the 1P7 how to create local vault which is not synced. Same for "sync" preference pane - it's not there since I've joined 1Password 7 for Teams at work, and also bought 1Password 7 for Family.

zharikovpro

@hawkmoth

Sorry, I replied before seeing your answer. It's a lifesaver!

You can still sync by whatever method you have been using, You can sign out of your account (created with the membership) and enable Dropbox or iCloud syncing, just as before. Go to 1Password Preferences.

Yeah, this was exactly I was looking for. Sorry for a lengthy discussion, I was very frustrated to miss that thing and it's really buried very deep. With that option, I'll keep using 1P7 with the same setup as before. Standalone vaults are my choice!

danco

@zharikovpro Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that doesn't seem to me any better than syncing via 1Password.

Using Dropbox or iCloud sync (with a standalone vault) and you have a local copy and a copy on Dropbox or iCloud. Syncing using a 1PW membership and you have a local copy and a copy (actually it is the original, I think, with the local version being a copy) in 1Password.com. And 1Password.com version has various backups.

What I think may be important to some people is having backups (NOT sync) which aren't on anybody else's servers. And not even on one's main hard drive, as that can fail. But this is just a matter of using one's favourite backup program (SuperDuper, Carbon Copy Cloner, Chronosync) to back things up to another drive.

zharikovpro

What I think may be important to some people is having backups (NOT sync) which aren't on anybody else's servers.

Yes, that's the point.

Syncing using a 1PW membership and you have a local copy

Question is - where is that local copy that I can backup however I want? FTo do that, I need to know the path to it (on MacOS).

Ben

1Password 7 for Mac stores its data in:

~/Library/Group Containers/2BUA8C4S2C.com.agilebits/Library/Application Support/1Password/Data

Ben

AGAlumB

Question is - where is that local copy that I can backup however I want? FTo do that, I need to know the path to it (on MacOS).

@zharikovpro: But also, no you don't need to know the path. If you make a full-disk backup (which everyone should be doing anyway), 1Password's support folders will be included too. Otherwise it's less of a 3-2-1 backup strategy and pushed back some decimal places, when only a small fraction of your data is being backed up. Better safe than sorry.

danco

Ben has given the location for 1PW7. The location for 1PW6 (and earlier) is different, though, and depends on whether you got 1PW direct from AgileBits. or from the App Store.

For those, try ~/Library/Application Support/1Password 4/Data/OnePassword.sqlite (even if you are using 1PW6) or ~/Library/Containers/2BUA8C4S2C.com.agilebits.onepassword-osx-helper/Data/Library/Data/OnePassword.sqlite

zharikovpro

@brenty

If you make a full-disk backup (which everyone should be doing anyway)

Full-disk backups have drawbacks too, and I use another backup methods.

Otherwise it's less of a 3-2-1 backup strategy and pushed back some decimal places, when only a small fraction of your data is being backed up.

If I backup a file in 3-2-1 way then I have that file backed up in 3-2-1 way, nothing is pushed back. And I even do versioned backups, so it is very safe. Full-disk backup is not a requirement for this, though thank you very much for care.

@ben

I don't see opvault files here, yet it's something helpful that should work with current 1Password version, thank you!

zharikovpro

when only a small fraction of your data is being backed up. Better safe than sorry.

That's why I'm very happy with "old-fashioned" way of having opvault synced to a folder, which is very convenient to backup and restore, no need to even think about support directories, etc.

Ben

I don't see opvault files here, yet it's something helpful that should work with current 1Password version, thank you!

OPVault files are sync files. They are only created if your are using Dropbox or Folder Sync, and if you are they’ll be stored in Dropbox, or whatever location you define.

Ben

bud

Thank you very much brenty and Ben for your responses. I appreciate all the good information you've provided; it definitely helped me sort things out. After much more reading of various opinions about v7, I've decided to just stick with v6 for now. I'm sure I'll be forced to upgrade at some future point, but the reality for me is that v6 is doing everything I need and it's doing it perfectly from my point of view. The new features/enhancements are probably great for someone, but there's really nothing there that I need. I'm going to wait and continue to read feedback from others, and eventually I'll upgrade to either a license or membership. Thanks!

Ben

You’re welcome. :+1:

Ben