Reactions from users to all the v8-changes
Hello,
I am very surprised about the (negative) feedback we can read on many threads here.
Ok, it is the feedback of very, very few users. On the other side countless users might have not heard about the changes coming with v8, and might not think about these (they just install the new version).
In a few German IT/Mac-forums, which I follow, it looks similar: Many users are very unhappy about the changes (subscription, Electron, no local vaults, ...) and will leave 1Pwd.
I wonder why AgileBits did all these changes. Or: Why did they not listen or ask the users BEFORE starting with v8?! Or is just a part of their calculation: too loose many users?!
I remember something similar happened with Fantastical - endless negative feedback, many users stopped using Fantastical. But in the end there were still enough users paying for the subscription/new version. No matter what the other users said ...
:-(
Claus
1Password Version: Not Provided
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: Not Provided
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Because product managers are paid to change things. Not paid to keep things the same.
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Because since getting the VC money, the focus is on endless growth (in the business market mainly) - not on simply making the best product on the market. Their original customers (the ones who care about these things) are a tiny percentage of their whole customer base now, so losing them won't really affect the billions of $$$ coming in.
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Hi @claus, thanks for taking the time to write this. I hope to offer a few points here that I hope might shed some light on things:
I wonder why AgileBits did all these changes. Or: Why did they not listen or ask the users BEFORE starting with v8?!
- The first thing is, customer feedback will always always be important to us. We want to design and support a product that does something really important, and which meets the needs of a lot of people around the world. If we're not making people happy, we want to know about it, so we appreciate getting all the feedback - the positive, the harsh critiques, everything - to better understand what you need.
Dave Teare has covered the issue of standalone vaults much better than I can. You can find that post from June 19 here:
https://1password.community/discussion/comment/602340/#Comment_602340
Also, we have let people know about the plan for 1Password 8. We did our Early Access launch of 1Password for Linux, the first of this new generation of 1Password apps, back in May. 1Password for Windows followed a little while later. Both of these apps, like 1Password 8 for Mac, are built around the architecture that runs through 1Password.com. There's a lot of benefits to this, but I'll save that explanation for another time. I'm just trying to say that we've been up-front about how we plan to go forward.
- As someone who supports 1Password customers: we're hoping that folks give us the benefit of the doubt with these new changes, given 1Password's reputation for privacy, security, responsiveness, and our customer-centered focus. We hope people will try the Early Access app, let us know what they like about it and what could be better too. 👍
Speaking only for myself (and acknowledging that I'm not a developer), I find some immediate benefits to the "unified backend in Rust, front-end uses Electron" approach:
The app looks and behaves consistently across platforms. This is more valuable to a lot of people than I think we may have heard so far - some people really don't want to learn a new app (or navigate a different design language) across devices. If I'm wrong about this: that's feedback we welcome too. 🙂
Having a unified core app across platforms, rather than writing a different product for each, is a plus on a number of fronts. It means a smaller attack surface for attackers to exploit. It means that improvements and fixes can be rolled out across several platforms at once. It means we can provide customer support more effectively, because there isn't a different design logic underlying each different product. It just allows us to be more way more effective.
Or is just a part of their calculation: too loose many users?!
Absolutely not. Our customers are the basis of everything we do. If we aren't heading in the right direction, we want to know about it.
You can expect us to evolve in a way that supports your ability to keep your data safe, respects your privacy, and doesn't entail unreasonable costs or covert fees. We still don't sell or give away your data. We still don't know (or want to know) what you save in 1Password. We still don't have any access to your stuff. We still don't retain any user data that's not necessary for making things work on a daily basis. We still build out features like Travel Mode to keep data safe when you cross the border. We provide the app, and support for the app, on every major platform. We offer plans for families and businesses. We make it unreasonably difficult to break into. And, we incorporate user feedback every day (literally!) to make things better as we go.
Is that worth a subscription? We hope that you'll find that it is. 🙂
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@PeterG_1P From my perspective, it seems like GitTower has been able to build an app that looks and works the same across macOS and Windows. The macOS app looks and feels like a native app. If they can do it AgileBits should be able to do it.
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We hear you, @octanes_dunks, and are listening closely. While I hope that I've been able to outline some of the advantages that will come with 1Password 8 as-is, we also take your input seriously. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us.
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The app looks and behaves consistently across platforms. This is more valuable to a lot of people than I think we may have heard so far - some people really don't want to learn a new app (or navigate a different design language) across devices. If I'm wrong about this: that's feedback we welcome too.
I'll throw in my feedback that I use 1Password on both macOS (primary) and Windows (gaming) and I personally value native UX experiences more.
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Using a web front end to make an app look and behave consistently across platforms just means you've ceded the possibility of playing to a platform's strengths in order to ship to the lowest common denominator.
I can also anecdote that my 70 year old parents, who I have put on my 1password family plan, have given up on it and switched back to a password protected excel sheet because the UI now confuses them and often creates many duplicate entries due to autocomplete in the browser being overzealous.
Let me say that again: in the course of four years, 1Password's UI has degraded to being less intuitive than Microsoft Excel.Quiet, boring competence is what you want in a security-critical application, but instead we're getting redesigns and features for press release reasons, because now Agile Bits MUST hit an absurd 2 billion dollar valuation.
I am seriously considering switching to Lastpass since if the clients are going to be equally bad and the attack surface is going to be same on both platforms, I might as well pick the one that doesn't change everything about its architecture annually.
Congratulations on still not allowing document exports, though. That's keeping me around for a few more months while I untangle that mess.
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@xargh I am sorry about the document exports, it certainly must be fixed and we might actually have a solution in 1Password 8 where we implemented encrypted local backups.
Re: lowest common denominator. It is certainly not what 1Password 8 is. I mentioned this earlier but there is a ton of platform-specific code in 1P8. We have more Swift code than TypeScript in the repo and the Rust core takes full advantage of the native OS features on every platform.
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Both of these apps, like 1Password 8 for Mac, are built around the architecture that runs through 1Password.com. There's a lot of benefits to this, but I'll save that explanation for another time. I'm just trying to say that we've been up-front about how we plan to go forward.
I think not a single one of your Mac customers expected you to go in that direction on the Mac app. Using the Electron architecture might make sense on platforms where 1Password is a recent entrant, but the Mac is not that case.
The app looks and behaves consistently across platforms.
Bluntly - I don’t care. I use native Mac applications because that is still, to me, the most powerful and delightful user experience out there. It’s one of the main reasons I came to find 1Password in the first place and have paid for and subscribed to virtually every version you all have released. Actively hurting the Mac experience to reach other platforms (especially when you all have the resources to not do that) is really disappointing.
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@PeterG_1P
You wrote: "The app looks and behaves consistently across platforms. This is more valuable to a lot of people than I think we may have heard so far - some people really don't want to learn a new app (or navigate a different design language) across devices. If I'm wrong about this: that's feedback we welcome too"
This is a dream that many have tried to achieve but the compromises required in order to achieve it are not worth it. I wonder, how many 1Password subscribers do use Windows instead of Mac? How many Mac 1Password subscribers also use 1Password on a Windows machine?
You want to have your app available everywhere. That's great. Do the work then on each platform separately so that your apps works and behaves like a native app on each platform. Do not get lazy. Electron is just bad and there is not a single good implementation of Electron apps out there, at least none that I know of.
1Password users are normally power users. I do not think that Mac users felt bad when they tried using the Windows app. Power users have no issues with UI differences across platforms. They value good OS integration that follows the UI guidelines of the OS.
You are definitely on the wrong path here. You might want to make more money from Windows users, but you will lose the Mac users if you continue like that. macOS Monterey brings a separate app for accessing iCloud Keychain. This is the way to go if you are a Mac user.0 -
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The app looks and behaves consistently across platforms. This is more valuable to a lot of people than I think we may have heard so far - some people really don't want to learn a new app (or navigate a different design language) across devices. If I'm wrong about this: that's feedback we welcome too.
That's something along the lines I heard from product managers quite a bit in the past but I couldn't disagree more. Yes, some people learn how to use an app - those will benefit here. But a whole lot more and especially power users learn how to use a platform and value consistent behaviours across apps. I don't want to re-learn how a settings window behaves in every app...
It's Electron based apps that prevent users from understanding and learning how to use a platform - because they destroy all consistency you expect across apps from various vendors on the same platform.
It's deeply disappointing to hear things like that from a company was known to understand this in the past. At least you don't have be nervous anymore when checking the Apple Design Awards finalist...
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(I apologize for my multiple comments up there - was not intentional, so if an admin is able, please clean them out as I cannot delete myself. 8-) )
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@PeterG_1P : You wrote "Our customers are the basis of everything we do. If we aren't heading in the right direction, we want to know about it."
After reading many comments and the feedback it seems to me that you are not heading in the right direction. So, will you change the direction?
Why didn't you release FIRST the Mac version of v8? Why first Linus, then Windows and some time ago. the Mac version? You knew that you get such a feedback, but now it is too "late" to change the direction ...
It seems to me that you continue to "whitewash" v8, and will do bug-fixing.0 -
The app looks and behaves consistently across platforms. This is more valuable to a lot of people than I think we may have heard so far - some people really don't want to learn a new app (or navigate a different design language) across devices. If I'm wrong about this: that's feedback we welcome too. 🙂
This is the point that every discussion about this comes back to. AgileBits seems to feel that this is a bonus, but this isn't what your long term users seem to want. From the feedback on this forum (and I agree with a lot of it), it's pretty clear: we want UIs that feel native on each platform.
It's important to remember that a password manager isn't something you spend lots of time in at once, it's rarely your primary focus. It is a utility application - a password manager exists to make other tasks and workflows easier. It seems a lot of us agree that's done best by not making us have to mentally context-switch every time we use it because it doesn't match the UI of the other apps on the platform we're using. It should feel as native as possible, rather than surprising the user with UI that doesn't match their expectations. The use of modal windows with non-standard UI is a great example of surprising the user with UI that feels 'wrong' - you use apps like Slack as positive references for this approach, whereas Slack is one of the worst offenders for shoving a web page in a window and calling it a native app.
I feel that this feedback isn't being taken onboard well, as every reaction I've seen from 1Password staff seems to largely sidestep it or tries to somehow convince us that it is a positive and we just don't understand - as a long term customer, the tone of those responses is pretty bad. If it is a business decision, just be honest about it. A lot of us will respect that a lot more than PR-y feeling responses.
It's genuine feedback from a not-insignificant number of your users - and these early access users are your advocates. They are the people who get families and companies to use 1Password.
edit: as an example - https://1password.community/discussion/122675/menu-bar-icon-on-1password-8 - the user explains why mini better fits their workflow than Quick Access, but the feedback from a 1Password staff member is just an anecdote on how they prefer Quick Access. It's not exactly the kind of response that looks like you're taking that kind of feedback seriously.
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My impression is that AgileB won't change a lot. They do fix-fixing, some cosmetic changes. But the app will be more or less the same as we see it now. We read friendly answers from the 1Password team if there comes a bug report. But critics in general ... well ... we have to accept it how it is now.
Not surprised that first a Linux version was developed, then the Windows version. And now the Mac version. Why at the end - and not first - the Mac version? More difficult to "block" the constructive (or: negative) feedback about general aspects e.g. the UI.0 -
The app looks and behaves consistently across platforms.
@PeterG_1P, that means it will not feel or behave like a macOS app in macOS, it will not feel or behave like a Windows app in Windows... and so on.
Having a "consistent look and behavior" across different platforms means that you'll ignore those platforms UI guidelines and concepts.
Those things matters.
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I wonder how many customers actually use the app across platforms (and I’m obviously not talking macOS vs iOS vs iPad OS, but Apple platforms vs Linux or Windows).
I don’t use 1Password on separate platforms and it really makes me feel like people like me have been sacrificed over the multi-platform dogma. Pretty much like Microsoft has done with Office (the core of Office apps had drastic UI changes in the process that are a pain to deal with on a Mac, and look at Outlook for Mac now: It has lost so many features in the process it’s basically useless to any power user).I think the problem is that on top of UI changes, we had significant regressions and it’s making it hard in the balance between improvements vs. negative changes in the new version :-\
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“The app looks and behaves consistently across platforms. This is more valuable to a lot of people than I think we may have heard so far - some people really don't want to learn a new app (or navigate a different design language) across devices. If I'm wrong about this: that's feedback we welcome too. 🙂”
Even Google has seen the error of its ways in this regard and abandoned this approach in favor of platform specific UI development.
Google will stop trying to make its iOS apps look like Android apps - Yahoo News
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In my opinion, 1Pwd 7 for Mac and the actual version for Windows (not sure which version it was, I have to use it only a very few times) are quite similar. Ok, both look bit different but functions are more or less the same. Absolutely no deed to make the apps on the different platforms look & feel the same.
But for AgileBits it is an argument to make this step (backwards) using Electron. In fact, it is not about the look & feel (then they must stay with the Mac GUI on Mac), it is ONLY about reducing costs for developing the app for several platforms.I do not really trust AgileBits in some points anymore. They post what some people maybe said or want (or not). They just use this to have arguments for the changes.
But, hey, I am sure there are much, much more users against what we see here with v8 for Mac. But suddenly this does not matter for AgileBits.Please, AgileBits, please - stopp v8 in the way as wee se it now!
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As someone who supports 1Password customers: we're hoping that folks give us the benefit of the doubt with these new changes, given 1Password's reputation for privacy, security, responsiveness, and our customer-centered focus. We hope people will try the Early Access app, let us know what they like about it and what could be better too. 👍
But you're not listening when we are telling you that we don't like it and prefer a native experience. It is a challenge to design native experiences where the user understands how to accomplish a task due primarily to familiarity with the platform. The answer is not "hurr durr, make same app all platform!" that's the easy way out and it is not a good experience on any of the platforms it is shipped on.
We are not telling you what we like and dislike about v8, we are telling you you made the wrong decision when you started down this path and are hoping you'll reverse course before it is too late.
Fact is, you're right, most users won't care, but that's only because most users don't give a shit about these things. The users that know what they're talking about are the ones voicing their concerns right now @PeterG_1P. I left LastPass because their app has always sucked and wasn't getting better, the company being sold multiple times sealed the deal for me and here I am. I have since realised what a pleasure it is to use a well built integrated native app, and if you're going to ditch that for Electron I am going to move to a different solution almost out of spite.
I have no issues with the subscription model, fact is that just makes a lot of sense for software to be honest.
I'll stay with v7 until I can't and at that point I'll either move to another native version you have put out, or I'll switch to Bitwarden.
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