FEATURE REQUEST: Allow an item to be stored in multiple folders

phoenixrizing

I like having the ability to find my information in 1Password by what folder I've placed the item in or by type (as viewed in the Windows app and "category" as viewed in the Android app--maybe these should be the same?). I'm wondering though if this couldn't be expanded a bit more because sometimes an item can be classified by more than one topic (folder).

To be clear, I'm not talking about tags, though there is some similarity to what I'm about to describe. Besides, tags are not available in the mobile app for Android and even if they were, I'm not entirely certain they would be as useful in this case.

I'm talking about placing items in multiple folders. For example, I go online to pay my bills each month. To make that process easier, I have all of the login items in one folder called "Bills" in 1Password for all of the places I need to submit a payment to. This is not only for convenience, but it also helps me make sure that everything that has a bill is in that folder, so I don't lose sight of something I owe.

What I am proposing

So, while having a "Bills" folder is definitely convenient, it would be even more convenient to store them simultaneously into other folders that make sense to me.

Can this be planned for release some time in the near future?

DBrown

Think of it this way: you can put lots of Post-It notes on a single document, but you can put the document itself into only one folder at a time. I"m aware of no plan to change that functionality.

Please see Working with folders and tags in the 1Password 4 for Windows user's guide for details.

phoenixrizing

That's true, DBrown, but only if a person is comfortable living in a world constrained by physical limitations. Thankfully, the person who created the copy machine or fax didn't want to live by those constraints and gave us the ability to make copies of that single document. :)

But in the digital world, there's no reason to live by the same limitations a piece of paper has.

Do you use shortcuts on your desktop to access the various applications or documents you work with every day? Like many of us, you probably have a few speed dials set in your phone as well. Both of these conveniences allow us to access information or perform a function just a little bit quicker than drilling down to find the original copy.

Tags have a purpose, but not so much on a mobile phone, and I don't think they'll ever really eliminate the need for folders.

So, can this at least be considered for integrating into the various 1Password apps?

[Deleted User]

TLDR: Folders is a well defined conecpt in a digital context and should not be changed, tags as a concept is also well defined but much more flexible, unfortunately the implementation in certain versions of 1Password is lacking.

That's true, DBrown, but only if a person is comfortable living in a world constrained by physical limitations.

In my opinion, this is not really about carrying over limitations from the physical world to the digital world. Just because the context is digital, doesn't mean we shouldn't have some kind of well defined terminology to work with.

You can place an item in one folder only not because it's impossible to change this behaviour, but because that's what a folder is. It has been used in computers because it's a well understood concept. Place a file in a folder and one folder only. This is how it works in all other operating systems and applications.

Of course I agree with your point that you should be able to access your information in a quick way. Looking for items in folders manually is slow. Fair enough, but why you are insisting on changing the folders concept to achieve your goal of organizing your data and access it in a quick way?

You bring up the speed dial example, but I don't see how that relates to changing how folders are used. Isn't speed dial identical to how favorites work? You select a limited number of items and display a list of them in a prominent place in the interface. In the case of 1Password, in the top left corner.

Now, if you are not happy with how folders work, why not consider the alternatives? For example, tags. They are exactly what you are looking for: a tag can be compared to a post-it note, as @DBrown mentioned. You can make as many identical post-it notes as you like and place them on different documents. You can place more than one post-it note on a single document. In the context of 1Password, I can have the tags bill and important. I can have 1Password items that concerns billing, but are not important, as well as important billing items and item that are important but not related to bills. The tagging feature allows me to do this kind of organization. The folders feature does not.

Now, the main benefit with digital post-it notes, tags, is that we don't manually have to check the tag for each document in order to make up a list of items that have the bills tag, for example. Instead, I can simply click on the tag somewhere in the interface and the application will provide me a list of all items using that tag. I don't have to make copies of items, I don't have to drag them somewhere. I just tag them and the application will do the rest. Another possibility is to create a "tag cloud" or "tag web" where if you select on tag, the application will show not only the items associated with the tag, but the other tags that's associated with the items associated with the first tag. Sounds complicated, but it works really well in practice. Sadly, it doesn't work in 1Password, not even in the Mac version.

Tags have a purpose, but not so much on a mobile phone,

Sorry, but why are tags not well suited for use on a phone?

It is obvious that tags are the new thing and folders are the old thing. Both concepts are taken from the physical world (because, well we live in physical world and it helps to use its concepts). The difference is that "breaking" the rules used by physical tags doesn't create confusion in what a tag is. A tag is much more flexible by definition. You can call it by different names. Tag, post-it, label, keyword. The possibilites of using tags are much greater than trying to extend the dated concept of folders.

The obvious issue is how tags are displayed in 1Password for Windows. They do not show up in the sidebar, like on the Mac. There, you could use them as superior folders replacements. In the Windows version, the only place for tags (except in individual items) are in the search field. And on Android, tags are not displayed at all. If these issues where fixed, I think you would see the benefits of tags.

EDIT: Here are two useful links on tagging:

http://brettterpstra.com/2011/12/16/some-suggestions-for-better-tagging/
http://brettterpstra.com/2013/07/28/mavericks-and-tagging/

It's mostly about tagging in the context of OS X and iOS, but the thinking can be used in our context as well, explaining what tags are and what folders are.

phoenixrizing

You bring up some very interesting points, Xe997. In fact, you've given me reason to think about using 1Password in a different manner, so thanks for that. :)

My premise was to use folders and tags mostly in the same way. I agree with you that folders is an old concept and a well-defined one at that. But the rules they live by in the physical world can still be broken if you include the concept of using a copy machine to make copies of a single document to place in a number of folders, hence my suggestion of having an item assigned to multiple folders. Sure, it's a pain physically, but digitally? I'm inclined to think not so much.

I'm thinking in terms of how Windows uses shortcuts, and in the case of using speed dials, these essentially are a shortcut because the alternatives are either to enter the complete number on the dial pad or accessing your contact list and scroll/search through it for the person you want to call. Speed dial: just press a button and you're done.

Tags, being the new concept, do have the ability to broaden the scope of how we organize and as a result access information.

However, I've always felt that tags can potentially make things a little more complicated because their purpose (to my way of thinking) has been to answer this question: How many ways (and I mean every way) can I think of this single item, so when I have to search for it I can easily find it?

For example, a book can be "tagged" by author, title, genre, number of pages, publisher, type of picture on the cover, and any other characteristic you can think of. I view this ability as both a blessing and a curse because you could potentially end up with an ocean of tags, thus defeating the purpose of finding information quickly.

The solution, I suppose, is to use tags not to classify every characteristic under the sun about an item, but only for the characteristics that are of interest to someone or that are logically and practically something that would be searched on.

This is why I thought tags would not be an efficient method to search for items on the mobile app at least because unless you constrain the use of these tags, they could potentially be an overwhelming list to sort through.

That being said, I can see the value of using a "bills" tag instead of a folder containing multiple types of items.

Thanks for your perspective on this, Xe997. It has been very useful to me. :)

RichardPayne

This is why I thought tags would not be an efficient method to search for items on the mobile app at least because unless you constrain the use of these tags, they could potentially be an overwhelming list to sort through.

That's really no different to folders though. You could have a huge and bewildering array of folders. It's up to the user to design a structure that is meaningful to them, just as with tags.

If agree with @Xe997‌ though. The Windows and Android implementations of Tags need to be brought up to match the Mac to be fully useful as a folder alternative.

[Deleted User]

. But the rules they live by in the physical world can still be broken if you include the concept of using a copy machine to make copies of a single document to place in a number of folders, hence my suggestion of having an item assigned to multiple folders. Sure, it's a pain physically, but digitally? I'm inclined to think not so much.

I think we all can agree that copying digital data is easier than copying physical documents. But just because making digital copies is easier, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Why make copies at all if there is a simple method where we only have one copy, and then assign tags to it?

Again, speed dial doesn't really concern folders. In my view, speed dial is just a special kind of tag. It's special in the way it is displayed. A number that's on speed dial doesn't force you to create a "copy" of an existing number in your contact list. You just have to tell the software: put this existing number/address book entry on speed dial. The speed dial list is not a folder you put numbers in. It's just a list of numbers that are on speed dial. Which is exactly what tags in general are. I select a tag in the sidebar, and I get a list of all the items that have that tag assigned to them. The items are not "in" the tag, like they are "in" the folder. They are just associated with the tag. No need for copies, aliases, hard links etc.

For example, a book can be "tagged" by author, title, genre, number of pages, publisher, type of picture on the cover, and any other characteristic you can think of. I view this ability as both a blessing and a curse because you could potentially end up with an ocean of tags, thus defeating the purpose of finding information quickly.

Yes, tags are a kind of metadata, along with other metadata like the ones you mentioned. There is certainly a risk that a new user "over-tags" items. I overused tags when I started tagging my files (outside 1Password). For example, I tagged documents with the year they were created. But of course, the document already has that metadata, making the tag redundant. Now I am more careful and tagging files are a way to "fill in the metadata gaps" in order to create relations between documents. So, when I speak of "tags" I mean that kind of arbitrary string of text a user can assign to a document. (As a side note, you could keep the tagging feature but simply replace "tag" with "Collection". Even though the feature would be the same, users would probably avoid creating redundant tags/collections, and instead choosing more folder like names)

And like @RichardPayne‌, I don't see why you mention this danger with a long list of tags, when the same thing can happen with your proposed folder.

The solution, I suppose, is to use tags not to classify every characteristic under the sun about an item, but only for the characteristics that are of interest to someone or that are logically and practically something that would be searched on.

It seems you only think of tags in the context of search. Tags are indeed very helpful when searching, but they are just as useful in a list in the sidebar which 1Password for Mac has proven. But OK, let's assume our user over uses tags, because she only thinks about how tags could be useful in a search, not thinking about the downside: an ocean of tags being created in the sidebar. Well, 1Password for Mac solves it in a way that you can have your cake and eat it too. You search, but you save this search, calling it a Smart folder, and display it permanently in the sidebar along with your "dumb" folders. And what's your search criteria? It simple, it's items that contains a certain tag. Which means you have elevated your peasant search tag to some kind of "super tag" that gets to live along your regular folders.

That's just an example. But I made it to show that tags are flexible enough to be used in both search and lists, and that limitations are in the application they are implemented in, rather than in the tag concept itself.

I agree that tags can not replace folders in the Windows and Android versions of 1Password, because of said limitations.

svondutch

you could potentially end up with an ocean of tags, thus defeating the purpose of finding information quickly

@phoenixrizing Have you tried this?

1. Start 1Password
2. Unlock
3. Ctrl+F
4. Alt+DownArrow

RichardPayne

That doesn't really address the concern @svondutch. If he had "an ocean of tags" then all using the Tag Search would do is present a really long list to choose from and possibly have to scroll through.

AlexHoffmann

The implementation of smart folders in 1Password for Mac is pretty much a saved smart search, very similar to what iTunes and OS X itself offer.

On Windows things work differently and we know that it lacks some features the OS X version has. The implementation of smart folder would differ from the way it works on the Mac, but it should give our users quite a few options to organise their 1Password database.

DBrown

Nice tip, @Xe997‌, and saved searches (a.k.a. "smart folders") are already on the list of requested features.

RichardPayne

The implementation of smart folder would differ from the way it works on the Mac

How and why?
I'm not familiar with the Mac implementation and I'm curious why it could not be duplicated.

DBrown

Perhaps different in some technical way (not necessarily even visible to the user), or perhaps not with a folder-like icon? I'm just guessing—the concept of a saved set of search criteria seems platform-independent.

RichardPayne

Indeed @DBrown. That's why @AlexHoffmann‌'s comment confused me.

AlexHoffmann

That was exactly what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.