Local backup, update problems (?), general future of 1password

kwieto

Hi,
I use 1password for quite long time (since 1st edition?) formerly on Mac, now on Windows (both mobile and desktop).
I have old password database from OS X (synced via Dropbox) but it is not editable if opened under windows edition.
There is a workaround for that, which is establishing 1password for teams account - this way I can add and edit password stored on Windows application.

The first problem which I face with such solution is that I can't find any way to backup the passwords locally. I can export them to unprotected txt or csv file, but this is not reliable solution. If I understood correctly, there is such possibility on Mac version, but this is not a solution for me since last revision of Mac OS which I have is 10.7 (Lion) and it is too old to install new release of your app on it. Is there a way to get local backup in a secure file?

Second issue is an update. It seems that from 6.1.304d revision each update installs as second application (after installation I have two separate applications on the list, both different revision), and I have to set my teams account separately on the new one. This should be that way, or it is a bug?

Third topic is general question about your plans for 1password windows edition. I use Teams edition ONLY because it gives me ability to edit/create new records. But this is kind of overkill for me since I don't need any "team" functionality. And frankly speaking, I don't want to pay monthly fee for these functionalities.
Since the future of standalone edition of 1password for Windows is not clear for me, I am considering switching to different app.
As I said I use 1password for quite long time and I was always very happy with it, but I also don't want to go for solution which can become a dead end. So I have some questions for the Windows edition future:

• Do you plan to add full functionality (edit, backup) for standalone (not teams or family) edition of 1password?
• If yes, then what is the timeline for that?
• If no, do you consider solution like single-payment (lifetime?) licence for 1password? What would be possible price compared to standalone version?
• What is the future of Windows mobile version of 1password (it seems that it is a bit behind the desktop revision)?

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1Password Version: 6.1.308
Extension Version: Not Provided
OS Version: Windows 10
Sync Type: Teams, dropbox
Referrer: forum-search:backu

MikeT

Hi @kwieto,

Thanks for getting in touch with us.

There are two separate 1Password products;

1. Local standalone versions of 1Password where you can use it to manage local vault files directly and sync it yourself
2. 1Password.com service that automatically manages your 1Password data for you. All you need is your 1Password.com account and the data appears automatically everywhere you sign in, including 1Password.com web app. No third party involvement, no backups, or anything like that, it's all managed for you.

On Windows right now, there are two 1Password apps that we are working to consolidate into one app for both types, local vault and 1Password.com.

If you need full local vault support, 1Password 4 for Windows is the latest supported version for that. You can find it here: https://agilebits.com/downloads

1Password 6 is limited to 1Password.com service, it is not ready for local vaults yet but it is coming in a future update and it will come with backup support for it.

When it comes to backups for 1Password.com service, this is all handled by us on the servers. There is no 1Password app that does offline backups for 1Password.com services on any platforms including macOS.

Do you plan to add full functionality (edit, backup) for standalone (not teams or family) edition of 1password?

This is already supported in 1Password 4 and yes, it will come to 1Password 6 once full local vault support is implemented.

If yes, then what is the timeline for that?

No timeframe, it may be a while. 1Password 4 is the best option for the moment.

If no, do you consider solution like single-payment (lifetime?) licence for 1password? What would be possible price compared to standalone version?

No lifetime license but we do offer local standalone license at our store here: https://agilebits.com/store for the local versions of 1Password. You do get discounts for owning an existing Mac license and if you bought a new license after March of this year, Windows is already included in the purchase.

What is the future of Windows mobile version of 1password (it seems that it is a bit behind the desktop revision)?

We don't have anything to share at the moment, we are going to release a major update to push it to be in sync with the desktop version. In the meantime, we've pulled it from the Windows Store for new customers for a few reasons explained below related to what you saw with the Windows Store.

Second issue is an update. It seems that from 6.1.304d revision each update installs as second application (after installation I have two separate applications on the list, both different revision), and I have to set my teams account separately on the new one. This should be that way, or it is a bug?

Based on that version number, it looks like you've downloaded 1Password from the Windows Store. There was a glitch where Windows Store made the internal 6.1.304d desktop update available for all desktop users instead of the UWP version of 1Password for everyone, this was not supposed to happen. This is why we've pulled 1Password from the Windows Store and we're still working out the next path for this issue. What you're seeing is the 304d's updater installing the regular desktop build from our website, thus two separate versions.

If you plan to keep using 1Password 6 with your 1Password.com account, I'd suggest uninstalling the 304d build or both versions via Control Panel > Remove Programs and install the latest one from our website here: https://1password.com/downloads/

You'll need to sign in again with all of your account information but it should have your 1Password data ready to go once you do sign in.

Third topic is general question about your plans for 1password windows edition. I use Teams edition ONLY because it gives me ability to edit/create new records. But this is kind of overkill for me since I don't need any "team" functionality. And frankly speaking, I don't want to pay monthly fee for these functionalities.

1Password.com Teams is not the only plan we offer, we also offer Individuals and Families plans, which 1Password 6 for Windows will support.

1Password.com Individuals doesn't include any sharing features and it is cheaper. The purpose is that we handle the data for you without you worrying about setting up a third party sync service along with other features that will only be available to 1Password.com such as access to 1Password.com web app. If you don't want 1Password to manage your data, then your best option is to switch to 1Password 4 + Dropbox setup.

We do apologize on how confusing this all seems. We're hoping to consolidate and simplify everything in the near future for Windows.

kwieto

Thanks for reply, but I still have questions.
First, I see that I should clarify that referring to "windows version" above, most of the times I
I considered both, phone and desktop version. And this changes a game a bit, because revision 4 of 1password might be a solution for desktop, but for phone there is (or was?) only 6th version, where edit features are available only with teams or family account.
And since my phone is my main device where I use password manager, I am stuck with the Teams account if I want to have any use of the program.
Which means that I don't have easy possibility to sync password with my old Mac.
I can link my dropbox account and database stored on it, I can even copy records to the teams vault, but not the other way around.

But there is another thing which pop up with your reply which really disturbs me and seems to be way more important to me.
You said that you removed 1password from Windows Store. I didn't realized that the 6.1.308 version which installed on my desktop automatically is a different app than this from the store. It came without ANY warning or information, that's first thing.
Second thing is that in case if I break my phone or somebody will steal it, I instantly lose any access to my passwords on the mobile phone, because I won't be able to install it on the new one.
Sorry, but this shouldn't be that way. One of the main features which I expect from password manager is reliability.
And since you move an app from the store and doing automatic installation of a different type of application on the desktop, there is no reliability at all.
I can understand technical issues and need to pull latest release back from the store, but couldn't you put oldest working release instead in order to not leave your customers without any application at all?

As I previously said I was a happy 1password user in the past and I would like to still use your program but you are not helping me to do that. In fact - based on the timeline of previous updates and other threads in Windows section of the forum - it seems that you don't like to have Windows customers (and probably cross platform users too, since many of us use Mac/Windows simultaneously)>
I could live with the knowledge that Win versions are little behind Mac releases. But it seems that you don't have any timeframe for key features missing in Windows releases. The typical response for request is "we plan it in future releases" without any information if it will be weeks, months, or (most probably, tracking progress in the past) years.
OK, maybe you're happy with that, but I simply don't understand it.

Combining everything together I have one more question. I am closer to the strategic decision to move for another password manager. I can do migration via export into insecure file (although I think that it shouldn't be like that) but I would like to also have a backup file in the 1password native format in case if I would go back. It seems that I can't have backup on local file, so my question is - after account is frozen, how long data are stored and accessible on your servers? If I would like, in example, access frozen account after 5 years, will I still be able to do it and reactivate it or export data from it?

MikeT

Hi @kwieto,

You're welcome but always feel free to ask any questions you want, that's what we're here for.

I considered both, phone and desktop version. And this changes a game a bit, because revision 4 of 1password might be a solution for desktop, but for phone there is (or was?) only 6th version, where edit features are available only with teams or family account.

That's not the case, 1Password 6 for iOS has full support for local vaults in addition to 1Password.com service, just like 1Password 6 for Windows will have.

We've shifting the designs around because there are too many confusion on the differences between 1Password.com and local vaults, so we're leaning on 1Password.com first and local vaults after.

If you want, you can create a local vault in 1Password 4 for Windows, sync it with Dropbox (or WLAN) and then configure 1Password 6 for iOS to pick up that local vault file, you'd be able to write/edit to it.

And since my phone is my main device where I use password manager, I am stuck with the Teams account if I want to have any use of the program.

You're not, 1Password 6 is not limited to 1Password.com service. We're just pushing the service a bit harder during the setup and it looks like it is limited but it is not.

Which means that I don't have easy possibility to sync password with my old Mac.

1Password 6 for Mac can still use Dropbox sync, which will be in sync with 1Password 6 for iOS and 1Password 4 for Windows.

1Password 6 for Windows support Dropbox sync too but read-only for the moment.

I can link my dropbox account and database stored on it, I can even copy records to the teams vault, but not the other way around.

Right now, you can select your item, go into its details view, scroll to the bottom, tap on Move and Copy, and tap on the local vault to copy the item to that local vault, this is supported in both directions.

In the next iOS update, there will be support for bulk copying/moving between vaults.

There are some limitations of this, like Documents, which doesn't exist in the local vault formats.

You said that you removed 1password from Windows Store. I didn't realized that the 6.1.308 version which installed on my desktop automatically is a different app than this from the store. It came without ANY warning or information, that's first thing.

They're both the same app, just stored in different locations and are treated by Windows as two separate apps. The problem is that the Windows Store version has an in-app updater that pulls the build from our website. If this was an intentional release, such an updater wouldn't be in that specific build at all, it would be optimized for the Windows Store completely.

As I mentioned, this was never supposed to be released, it wasn't our action that released it. We've submitted an internal build that was not for sale nor for release but out of nowhere, after a review process was done, the Windows Store made that available without our intervention. We didn't want it to be released, we wanted to test the internal review process to see if there may be a problem with it. That's why there was no warning anywhere. We could've done more to inform users, I agree and we're working on it.

Second thing is that in case if I break my phone or somebody will steal it, I instantly lose any access to my passwords on the mobile phone, because I won't be able to install it on the new one. Sorry, but this shouldn't be that way. One of the main features which I expect from password manager is reliability.

We've removed it for new customers. You can still find your 1Password app in your Library section of the Windows Store. You can still reinstall it on your Windows Phone any time, the UWP app is still there. The problem is that if you're on a desktop, it will only show you the desktop app, not the UWP app like it did prior to this situation.

And since you move an app from the store and doing automatic installation of a different type of application on the desktop, there is no reliability at all.

We agree and we're working with Microsoft to prevent that in the first place.

I can understand technical issues and need to pull latest release back from the store, but couldn't you put oldest working release instead in order to not leave your customers without any application at all?

Two main reasons:

1. First, we didn't understand what happened and we don't know how to prevent more people from getting the desktop build, it happened on a weekend and we couldn't get anyone in. We went through all the information and there was no way to undo it, so we had to submit another update but this time, remove it completely for new "sales". All existing customers still have access to 1Password app in the My Library section. We've removed it for new customers only. All Windows Mobile phone customers still get the UWP app but desktop users will only see the desktop build.
2. The desktop build is 3-4 months newer with internal database schema changes that was finalized last month, the previous app build is not aware of these changes and to re-release the pervious build without testing it first is not acceptable. The only option is to submit a new build that's tested.

The typical response for request is "we plan it in future releases" without any information if it will be weeks, months, or (most probably, tracking progress in the past) years. OK, maybe you're happy with that, but I simply don't understand it.

We're not happy not sharing information but it is information we simply don't have. Code development is not a precise science, there's no way of knowing the impact of one feature can have on the rest of the app. There are many features that has to wait for us to complete the internal subsystem before we can enable the rest of the features.

In the past, we've shared more information and offer estimates on when certain features might be available. This didn't work out well because it has turned into unproductive discussions and even a few threats of a lawsuit if we don't finish something in time.

We are 1Password users too, I use 1Password 6 daily on Windows and I understand how limiting it is, our developers too and we're working on it. We have every desire and hope to make 1Password 6 for Windows the best app on any platform but because it is a new app, a larger number of features has to wait for a core subsystem to be done before we can enable them. For an example, the item editor must be built completely to support custom fields/sections, custom icons, multiple URLs, Related Items, attachments (related item), and more. Once this is done, it can be reused in 1Password mini as well. It just feels much longer right now but once all core features are done, it will be much faster to ship more features on top of it.

I can do migration via export into insecure file (although I think that it shouldn't be like that)

Every app does encryption differently with different data structures. For someone else to accept our secure export file, they must implement the very same encryption algorithms we use. That's why all almost export/import are done in clear text format, there's no industry standard to agree upon a single secure format.

after account is frozen, how long data are stored and accessible on your servers? If I would like, in example, access frozen account after 5 years, will I still be able to do it and reactivate it or export data from it?

It is stored forever until you choose to delete the account manually. You will always be able to sign in again to your 1Password account with any 1Password app, export data out and/or renew the account.

kwieto

That's not the case, 1Password 6 for iOS has full support for local vaults in addition to 1Password.com service, just like 1Password 6 for Windows will have

That's good to know, but I don't use iOS and I don't plan it in future. And 1Password for Windows Phone doesn't have such functionality (as far as I know it is "planned for next releases" and without any timeline). So If I want to have any use with 1Password on my (Windows)phone (like being able to add or edit entries), then I am stucked to the Teams or Family account (if I am wrong here, please correct me).

Sorry for being sarcastic, but since I mentioned above that I use Windows Phone and never mentioned iOS in the discussion: guys, there are other mobile phone platforms than iOS on the world and you even produce some software for them.
In fact it is interesting that when I said "phone" you automatically headed to iOS and this perfectly shows where your focus is. Don't get me wrong, it is your choice where you focus your efforts, but for me it is a hint that you don't consider other platforms (at least Windows) seriously and there is little hope that the status quo will change any time soon. And point to think about if I should stick to your software out of loyalty and old habits, or look for other solutions.
This is why I am asking for timeline and plans for Windows edition - I can wait for some functionalities if I know how long it will take and I am convinced that I will not wake up someday surprised with no support at all because the project was abandoned completely.
I understand that you don't want (and probably can't) promise any specific deadlines, but it is different if I know that I can expect some progress i.e. during next 3/6/12/?? months, than if I am informed that it will be included someday in the future (but nobody knows when).

Right now, you can select your item, go into its details view, scroll to the bottom, tap on Move and Copy, and tap on the local vault to copy the item to that local vault, this is supported in both directions.

Not on the Windows, or I am missing something? On my phone (1Password 6.0.161u) it works only in one direction - from Dropbox to Teams vault. Records stored in Teams account can be copied between Teams vaults only (like personal and shared).

We've removed it for new customers. You can still find your 1Password app in your Library section of the Windows Store. You can still reinstall it on your Windows Phone any time, the UWP app is still there

Good to know, that changes the situation. If I loose my phone I will not be left without any password manager on the new one, and this is a good information.

We're not happy not sharing information but it is information we simply don't have. Code development is not a precise science, there's no way of knowing the impact of one feature can have on the rest of the app. There are many features that has to wait for us to complete the internal subsystem before we can enable the rest of the features.

As I said above, I understand that you don't want (or even can) give specific deadlines. I also understand that tere are some delays, unexpected obstacles and many other "bumps in the road". But being left with information that some progress will be "someday" is not very comfortable. I can wait for some functionalities, but I will not wait forever.

In the past, we've shared more information and offer estimates on when certain features might be available. This didn't work out well because it has turned into unproductive discussions and even a few threats of a lawsuit if we don't finish something in time.

OK, then I can understand your position. But there is some space between giving specific deadlines (risk of lawsuit if you don't keep them) and giving no information at all? I am perfectly fine with an info that "we plan to do this and that most probably during next X months, then if everything will be fine with implemented functionalities, we plan to do that during next Y of months".
I work close to the customer service in B2B segment and from my experience (and surveys which are done for my company) I learned that some information (even the bad one) is better than no information. Just because it allows customer to plan ahead.

By the way, if you need a beta-testers, I can apply fot that.

Every app does encryption differently with different data structures. For someone else to accept our secure export file, they must implement the very same encryption algorithms we use

I was thinking not only about a migration, but also about some kind of archive. Export-import features between different apps have some limitations and it might happen that something is imported with bugs.. But if the data stored on teams account is kept "forever", then there is a possibility to go back to original data and check in such cases (although I would prefer local file for that).

MikeT

Hi @kwieto,

My huge apologies, when you said Mac and OS X, 6th version and so on, I did subconsciously switched it to iOS when you said phone, we have a lot of Windows + iOS customers and it was a bad assumption on my part, even though you did mention UWP app a few times.

First, yes, you are absolutely correct that 1Password 6 for Windows 10 Mobile/UWP does not have editing support for local vaults and because it cannot edit/modify your local vaults, you can't copy/move items from your 1Password.com account to local vaults. I should've taken that as a hint you were talking about UWP. Again, I do apologize.

1Password for UWP will gain full support for local vaults in the near future just like the desktop. Full local vault support is near the top of our list and while I can't give you an ETA, all I can say is that it will not be years, that's for sure and we are hoping for it to be months as it is a high priority for us. Majority of the changes we're making are being done with the local vaults in mind and each update brings us closer to implementing writing/editing support to local vaults, such as the item editor changes coming soon in the beta updates (desktop only for now).

If you'd like to sign up for beta testing, there's an option within the desktop app to do this. Unlock 1Password 6, click on Settings on top right, select Options and then Updates on the left sidebar. You can enable beta updates and follow the instructions to sign up for beta testing.

As for the archive, we are looking into some kind of an encrypted archival format for this purpose. You can get a glance of why we don't have this right away yet.