Experiment #3 - Nearby Items

Doodler_Benji

Love these follow up scenarios @snowy!
Thank you

matt.g1P

@snowy I think we can cover all of those with our current plans. For the Bank accounts, do you use multiple branches? I think that's a really strong justification for the ability to add more than one location to an item.

snowy

Yes I predominantly use 2 different branches.

ag_andrew

Hey folks 👋

The feedback has been amazing, please keep it coming! One of the things we've been asked is for the option to use something other than meters as a unit of measurement. This is a great suggestion and I wanted give you an idea of what we're thinking so you could let us know if it would be a good fit for you.

Option	Home Screen

What do you think?

XIII

Feet and Meters both suggest an accuracy that GPS can't give (you posted that earlier).

Therefore, I'd rather see you solve that (not GPS itself of course, but a way to handle its lack of precision in 1Password) before introducing extra options.

Doodler_Benji

Cheers @XIII, I appreciate your perspective here.
I think it might be worth touching upon how this addition is to address inclusivity and how folks relate to the data displayed and it being as familiar as we can to them - instead of looking to provide misjudgement of the true distance even if it would be an approximate.

You raise a very interesting point, perhaps we turn our attention towards the 'nearby' instead of the 'how close'.

Thanks again,

johnjamesjacoby

Howdy everyone! I’m late to this party and am arriving to provide my NUX on this feature.

Without any context, the naming & verbiage made me think this was basically an alternative to (or a complement to) Apple Find My.

Even though I’m an 8-year user of 1PW, it never occurred to me that y’all use the word “Items” to broadly (but properly) describe every kind of entry.

“No items found nearby” as the default text & interface gave me a startle, because it was as if my Find My Items had all gone missing.

“Add a location to items and they’ll show up when you’re nearby” again, read to me like I was somehow tagging a physical item in the world and then it would be prominently displayed when I was close to it (a car, front door lock, NFC tag, etc…)

“Edit an item to assign it a location. View nearby items in 1Password for iOS and Android” again, read to me like I was adding a location to a physical item that could be tracked or seen using a mobile device.

No doubt that this is predominantly attributed to me:

• having the wrong impression stuck in my head
• using Apple AirTags on everything I’d hate to lose forever
• the ambiguity of the word “Item”
• my not registering how bonafide “Item” is in 1PW

I don’t mean to imply that I any major changes are necessary, and I appreciate the opportunity to engage with all y’all and how attentive to details your team has always been, and thought my confusion might be insightful. 💕

(The only improvement I can imagine that may have redirected my misconception early on, is a mock-up or visual representation of what the GUI in the app looks like: like hey that’s an interface I’m familiar with and oh ah yeah I see I see 🤣)

As for what Nearby Items actually is 😅 I tend to agree with others in this thread that the final form of this feature will be really smart entries that “just know” when to be useful:

• debit/credit cards ready when I’m a meter away from an ATM
• insurance cards when I’m at the dentist
• identity info when I’m at a hospital or school
• addresses when I’m at a post office
• key codes for smart locks at friends houses if I’m checking in while they’re on holiday
• or the inverse: sharing a PIN code to my garage door to someone who needs temporary access (would come with some smart meta data baked in, like a photo of what exactly to look for)

But up until now, the concept of bridging 1Password entries with physical locations is friction I’d never experienced a single time. “If only this entry knew I was here already” has never happened that I can remember anyways, so my use-cases are all imaginary right now, but I’ll give it a try & be back here if I have any ideas. 🧐

Doodler_Benji

Thanks @johnjamesjacoby, theres great insight here!

Your feedback about the item terminology has sparked my interest and I would love to know more here, is there another term that has been resonating with you for a collective of mixed items within your 1Password? This is certainly something that now you've mentioned has got me wondering if others may have been thinking and its worth exploring.

“Add a location to items and they’ll show up when you’re nearby” again, read to me like I was somehow tagging a physical item in the world and then it would be prominently displayed when I was close to it (a car, front door lock, NFC tag, etc…)

This is the premise, however there is no 'automatic' context where perhaps your using a tracking device like an AirTag/NFC and those locations being updated. Perhaps we may do well here to communicate this a little more clearly - however - we would love for this to become a method of being able to link your real-world objects with their digital 1Password stored counterparts. You're setting a location on a map / using gps to set the coords and when your device is in radius you've chosen in app - it will be shown in the home tile, sorted by the closest distance first.

(The only improvement I can imagine that may have redirected my misconception early on, is a mock-up or visual representation of what the GUI in the app looks like: like hey that’s an interface I’m familiar with and oh ah yeah I see I see 🤣)

Thank you for this suggestion, I can absolutely appreciate and visualise where you're coming from thanks to how you've carefully crafted your feedback. Thank you for this, this is great advice and its noted for future updates.

JefeBato

"Google Maps" (Android)? What does this Boolean setting do/enable?
Apologies for the dumb question! A search returned no hits on 1password.community.

johnjamesjacoby

@JefeBato it represents their asking for user permission to interface with the Maps apps.

They did this their own way because neither of the native map apps (in iOS nor Android) have their own GUI for that specific allowance. They both DO have a privacy setting for tracking, but the Maps apps are fully open and permission is not “required”. The 1PW team is going the extra mile here. 💕

With it unchecked to off, when you attempt to add a location to an Item it looks like this:

johnjamesjacoby

@Doodler_Benji 🙏🙌

is there another term that has been resonating with you for a collective of mixed items within your 1Password? This is certainly something that now you've mentioned has got me wondering if others may have been thinking and its worth exploring.

Back when 1PW was just passwords, I would call them passwords 😅 but as capabilities expanded I switched to intentionally using phrases like “click the plus and select ‘Login’” instead of “create a new password” – but once “entered” they became an “entry” in my mind, like in a journal or logbook, each new entry was a quantum wrapper for interacting with whatever it was pointed towards.

The 1PW apps are quite clear and consistent about entries being “Items” everywhere: sheets, help texts, labels, buttons, navs, etc… but in the “real world” outside of the 1PW app an “Item” in my Apple world mind already means a physical item (like a backpack, bike, pet, computer, keys, onewheel, etc…)

And that consistency is why I love & use 1PW. It reduces cognitive load which I think is a critical aspect of making the world secure by default.

I can’t imagine y’all renaming “Items” everywhere internally. What a chore. Not just apps, but docs history & screenshots & stuff too. And potentially confuses the folks who either do not care, didn’t notice, or like/prefer “Item” and won’t like that it changed to “Entry.”

The only thing I’d experiment with internally, if I were on the 1PW engineering team, is to remove “Item” entirely and not refer to the collective as anything, instead opting to use more descriptive language or omitting labels entirely (like below the very bottom toolbar nav icons) and then only-ever falling back to “Entry” as a last resort – but still consistently – and kaboshing “Item” from the company lexicon 😅

And to be fair about it, I can see how “Entry” isn’t perfect either, because it unintentionally flips the emphasis away from ThE tHiNg back inwards towards 1Password’s own things.

(Also, my apologies for the minor thread hi-jack 😜)

Doodler_Benji

@johnjamesjacoby Thanks for the follow-up, no apology needed for the additional context. I like to absorb and gather as much understanding as I can to grow an inclusive mindset. While I don't foresee us making changes to item(s) anytime soon as you've mentioned, I do like how you're pushing us with this thought challenge. It's these moments that help us craft a more meaningful and richer calibre of output.

Cheers!

zaengerlein

Great feature - it please allow for multiple locations.

LarryMcJ

Kind of annoying that every time I close 1Password in macOS, it opens Apple Maps (for no apparent reason), which I than have to close. I have Nearby Places enabled for one item in 1Password.

Doodler_Benji

Hey @LarryMcJ, this doesn't sound right at all. Thanks for letting us know, we're discussing it now and will be back in touch!

LarryMcJ

Well, whatever it was, it fixed itself. I haven't changed anything in 1Password, but I just noticed it's now working as expected. The only thing that did change was the 1P Safari extension update two days ago, if it might be somehow linked.

Doodler_Benji

Very peculiar - we were not able to replicate it yet, so if it does reoccur please let us know.
Glad all is behaving as intended again, cheers Larry!

pleaseopensource1p

Interesting feature! Could you please explain the privacy approach of this feature? For example, is my location only processed on-device or is my location history sent to 1p?

Thanks!

ag_andrew

Hi @pleaseopensource1p 👋

We've built this feature in a way that maximizes your control over your location data.

1. For those looking for maximum privacy, they don't have to give 1Password permission to use their location. They can still add locations to their items (by entering in the latitude/longitude) and they can use (for example) Open in Maps if they want to see that location in using an external mapping service.
2. For those comfortable giving 1Password permission to use their location, they'll be able to make use of showing Nearby Items (items physically close to you). Your location is only used to compute distances between you and your items and isn't saved or logged, and it doesn't leave your device.
3. For those comfortable with using a Mapping service, we will show your item on a map inside 1Password. Since this involves a non-1Password technology (e.g Apple's MapKit on iOS, Google Maps on Android) we make this opt-in so that you maintain full control over your item location data.

Hopefully this helps explain how we use your data (we worked really hard to give you the most control), please let us know if you have any more questions.

pleaseopensource1p

Thanks for the quick response! That is reassuring. Re #3, does this also happen on-device as far as 1password is concerned?

ag_andrew

@pleaseopensource1p Great question, it really depends on the platform since they all interact with their mapping services slightly differently. On iOS and macOS, we are using the built-in mapping framework provided by Apple. The framework itself may make remote calls to Apple's mapping backend (we only call the framework, we don't control its behaviour, remote or otherwise). It's a similar story on Android where the Google Map service is used. While we haven't made a decision about Windows or Linux, since those platforms don't have built-in mapping frameworks, it would require us to make calls to an external mapping service ourselves.

likethesky

I have two items I’d like to comment on regarding this feature. They’re the first two things that I always think about whenever an app wants my location. First one probably more important, but they’re both important:

1) What kind of battery drain will this app cause on my phone if I enable “always allow?” I often won’t allow it for smaller companies who build mobile apps, because they often get this wrong and add significant drain on my phone, in the background, enough to make them useless often. So…, if I were the product team working on this feature, I’d be sure to set battery drain goals for this feature and strive to improve on those goals and also just make sure it passes the “does it drain rapidly” smell test for sure...

2) This follows naturally from “always allow” location, and that’s: do you log my location in any way—other than of course knowing where my preset locations are for using passwords or other stored info from 1P? I’m fine with you knowing where I use passwords—though even that is quite sensitive—but I’d want to know a lot about your encryption and destruction of “moving around logs” of my GPS location. In fact, can you just have Apple’s Secure Enclave just notify you when I’m near a place, and you never see my movements, just when I’m near a place I’ve set?

I’d want to learn about both of these two items above, once it’s out of beta before taking the plunge and using it.

My $0.0199 worth!

Cheers
~ Brad

Maubro

Hello everyone,

First off all, I find it impressive to see that 1Password not only seeks feedback from the community for new experiments but also actively responds to the community's reactions. 👍🏻
When I enabled the feature, I initially had the same experience that “johnjamesjacoby” refers to in his first comment.
I was really searching for where I could edit and add “items”.
However, after 5-10 minutes of exploring and trying things out, I suddenly realized that maybe I needed to activate it for my “item” and per item itself. Eventually, I figured it out.
After that, I started to think about how this feature could actually benefit me. What is truly interesting for me about this feature? Something I’ve always run into that this now finally makes possible? After pondering it for a few more days, the answer ultimately was. No idea. At least, no real “Wow, this is genuinely going to help me” kind of idea.
Then I thought, maybe I’ve forgotten, maybe if I read the community feedback I’ll think “oh yes… that’s useful!”
Now, having read through the entire community feedback, I see a lot of enthusiasts responding and coming up with ideas.
It’s super nice to see the positive reactions and even nicer to see 1Password react so enthusiastically. That it really adds value for 1Password.
Yet, I still don’t see a superior advantage in this feature.
And that’s why I thought it’s important to share my view on this as well. (Without stepping on the toes of other enthusiasts, I do bring in some examples from them to bolster my arguments. So please don’t feel attacked, as that’s not my intention.)

My view on this feature:
To be honest, I must say that when it comes to features, I’m conservative. I have been working with 1Password for years, and in my business, I advise and implement this password manager for my clients. Why 1Password? Unlike many other password managers, the companies behind them often have other activities, and password management is just another product of such a company.
Security is the core activity of AgileBits in the form of the app 1Password. Here, they are truly masters. (As all community members will attest)
A feature like this, in my opinion, deviates from the core quality of AgileBits.
This feature is about “convenience,” and as I see it now, this feature has nothing to do with the core of security.
Maybe because I don’t see it, that could certainly also be the case, but then please explain to me where the “security” aspect of this is.
If I read it’s handy to have my PIN code directly at hand when I’m at the ATM, my first thought is, “Are there really so many people who can’t remember their PIN code. How often is this feature really going to be used?”
Insurance card at the medical doctor’s office. How often in a year do you really need to show that? Is it so much work to do a search in 1password when you need this information?
Passwords per location, why? 1Password automatically fills in the password for me wherever I am. I don’t need to search for it and then fill it in, making it convenient that my office passwords are visible first when I’m there.
Maybe it’s a cultural difference why I don’t see it. That could be. In Amsterdam, we hardly do anything with cash anymore (read here we rarely go to the ATM and know PIN codes by heart), here we maybe go to a doctor less annually, post offices here have almost all disappeared, smart locks for houses are available, but in general we just lend the physical key directly.
If you ask me, I’d say: AgileBits, stick to what you are incredibly good at; 1password's security.
And don’t add extra nice to haves to your app because that only distracts from what it should really be about.

Additionally, my advice to 1Password for every (new) feature you roll out in the lab would also be to assign a rating according to the Moscow method to the experiment in “The primary questions I'm trying to answer.”

• Must have
• Should have
• Could have
• Won't have
  This also gives a good insight into how important people actually find the feature.
  For now, my importance for this feature is: Won’t have

All the best to everyone.

figurehead

I have been using this feature now for the last few weeks and am quite happy with it, and would definitely like to see this make it into a permanent option (obviously with the possibility to switch it off for those who would prefer not to use it). The two requests I would have for improvement (both already mentioned by others):
1. Multiple locations per item.
2. Link with barcodes.

Doodler_Benji

Hello @Maubro,

Great feedback to receive, thank you for providing such a thorough follow-up 👍🏻.

1Password not only seeks feedback from the community for new experiments but also actively responds

You bet! It's important to us that we are able to discuss these experiments and our app in general with those who rely upon it and want to help improve 1Password in which ever form this takes.

I was really searching for where I could edit and add “items”.

Thanks for letting us know the confusion with 'items', up-until this thread, I'd never heard of the hesitance of this term and it has absolutely been spurring conversations for me as to how might we address this.

Eventually, I figured it out.

Ah, superb - that's good to hear!

I started to think about how this feature could actually benefit me. What is truly interesting for me about this feature? Something I’ve always run into that this now finally makes possible? After pondering it for a few more days, the answer ultimately was. No idea.

Thank you, for taking the time to mull it over and share this with us. Not every feature or idea we concept/provide as an experiment will be for everyone. There are parts to this feature we've been discussing internally that we've not yet got to a state we're ready to share so while it might not inspire in it's current form, there are ways and means that we see this addressing a number of needs for for those using 1Password inside and outside of their working days, with family or simply them on their own.

It’s super nice to see the positive reactions and even nicer to see 1Password react so enthusiastically. That it really adds value for 1Password.

Oh you... Thank you again. This is great to hear, and is very encouraging.

Yet, I still don’t see a superior advantage in this feature.

.. Go on...

And that’s why I thought it’s important to share my view on this as well.

I'm super grateful!

(Without stepping on the toes of other enthusiasts, I do bring in some examples from them to bolster my arguments. So please don’t feel attacked, as that’s not my intention.)

This is a community space for everyone to share their opinions with respect for others. A safe space if you will. You're good. :)

Security is the core activity of AgileBits in the form of the app 1Password.

Sure is! We're here to ensure that security is first and foremost of what we do, yet making it convenient for those who may not feel comfortable around 'security' without compromising it.

A feature like this, in my opinion, deviates from the core quality of AgileBits.

👀

This feature is about “convenience,” and as I see it now, this feature has nothing to do with the core of security. Maybe because I don’t see it, that could certainly also be the case, but then please explain to me where the “security” aspect of this is.

The idea that inspired this, was a story of a highly security conscious couple who use 1Password for everything, and a code for an alarm box which was 'buried within 1Password' when she needed to turn the alarm off and didn't have the code to hand.

What if, that code could have been there for her right when and where she needed it. Sure, he could have just sent the code to her in a message, yet that requires time and that alarm was blaring and she needed that code — and — let's focus on using a security app for this and I'm using an alarm code for a shed as a very simple metaphor for other more critical cases where there might be a need for finding things.

This is a convenience feature and it is a security feature for promoting better habits for users. Removing potential weak links in the chain so to speak. After all, 1Password should be used and hopefully loved by those using it frequently. If you're not using it, and you're relying on sharing things in plain text.... You know the rest of that story. So we must make it approachable and convenient so it can provide security for those who are using it.

If you ask me, I’d say: AgileBits, stick to what you are incredibly good at; 1password's security. And don’t add extra nice to haves to your app because that only distracts from what it should really be about.

Thank you for sharing this, however please remember that our focus is always on security.
You've got to make the unfamiliar, familiar, to those who need things in a secure manner or they're going to take another path where things may not be as secure. Convenience in a secure manner is good security to ensure you're providing a secure option to as many as you can or you're alienating those with poor security habits.

Additionally, my advice to 1Password for every (new) feature you roll out in the lab would also be to assign a rating according to the Moscow method to the experiment in “The primary questions I'm trying to answer.”

Thank you again for this also, we do follow similar practices in workflow already. That said, today I've learned about 'The Moscow Method' as a name for this practice.

Cheers and please do keep the feedback coming.
Benji

Doodler_Benji

Hey @figurehead,

Thanks a lot for adding your +1's to the feature requests!
Much appreciated!

Benji

norysang

It's really interesting to read about what others think. I want to reply to some things that @Maubro mentioned, because they talked about use cases which I also talked about before. Of course I can only speak about my personal experience.

If I read it’s handy to have my PIN code directly at hand when I’m at the ATM, my first thought is, “Are there really so many people who can’t remember their PIN code. How often is this feature really going to be used?”

I rarely need to get cash at an ATM, maybe once or twice a year, which is why I never know my PIN code. On top of that, I have more than a dozen cards for various reasons and each of them has a different PIN code. No chance that I'll remember all of them. For the feature to be actually helpful though I would need to be able to enter several locations for my most-visited ATMs instead of just one.

Insurance card at the medical doctor’s office. How often in a year do you really need to show that? Is it so much work to do a search in 1password when you need this information?

I live in Germany and how it works here is that prescriptions can be saved on your insurance card and you may need to enter the PIN two times, once at the doctor's office and again at the pharmacy. I rarely need to visit the doctor but when I do I usually get some kind of medication and never know my PIN code.

Passwords per location, why? 1Password automatically fills in the password for me wherever I am. I don’t need to search for it and then fill it in, making it convenient that my office passwords are visible first when I’m there.

I work three jobs, one is remote first and I visit the office about once every two months, the other one has me visiting the office about once a month. For both jobs there are physical keys to enter the building but whenever I need to access something else, I need to retrieve keys from a key safe locked with a code (one 8-digit alphanumerical, one 6-digit numerical). On top of that, there are shared company vehicles that, although they are unlocked with my smartphone, require a PIN-code before I can start driving. I am already using the location-based feature for these occasions and it's really handy.

Maybe it’s a cultural difference why I don’t see it. That could be. In Amsterdam, we hardly do anything with cash anymore (read here we rarely go to the ATM and know PIN codes by heart), here we maybe go to a doctor less annually, post offices here have almost all disappeared, smart locks for houses are available, but in general we just lend the physical key directly.

Welcome to Germany, where everything is analogue-first :D just joking (well, maybe not so much), but actually I've only encountered a smart lock in Germany once and even then it was PIN-code based. Unfortunately, we also heavily rely on cash payments and the whole health-sector is just gradually being digitised (we only dropped paper prescriptions at the end of 2023 and the migration is still not completely finished).

craig.skinner_1P

Hi @likethesky, I worked on the iOS aspects of this labs experiment so am answering these queries from that perspective, if you are using Android, let us know and we will ask an Android developer to help.

What kind of battery drain will this app cause on my phone if I enable “always allow?”

We don't continually track a users location in real time or at all when the app is in the background. We only currently request an updated location from the device in very specific circumstances in order to minimize any impact on battery life.

For example, if the nearby tile is enabled, we only request a location when the app unlocks or when the user loads their home screen. If the "Nearby" tile is not enabled on the home screen, we dont request a location from the device on unlock or when the home screen is loaded. We also have some time based filters in there too, to avoid it being checked too often.

We are using and testing this features ourselves and have had no reported issues to date with respect to impact on device battery life.

do you log my location in any way

1Password does not log a users location in any way. Your location is only used to a) assign "current location" to an encrypted item, and b) used to compute the distance between you and your items. For those not comfortable using their system maps provider, we've made that aspect opt-in so that you maintain full control over your item location data.

Please let us know if you have any more questions.

mrpmartin

Just want to say thanks for this feature - it is incredibly useful! Y'all are doing wonderful work 💪

craig.skinner_1P

@mrpmartin it is great to hear that you are finding it useful, thanks so much for saying so.