Design language
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One other screen that acts as a modal that did not act as a modal in 1Password 7 is the
sign in on another device. I keep my work 1Password details in my personal 1Password. In order to sign into my work 1Password account with 1Password 8, I had to copy the entire entry as JSON so that I could do this, which meant that the “sign in on another device” was completely useless.Tying 1Password behaviour into modals is an absolute usability regression and should be reconsidered; if the desire is to keep 1Password as a single window application, then embrace tabs (hitting
⌘,in VS Code brings up preferences in a new tab, not a modal).0 -
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I like @octothorpe88 suggestion as well. I really don't like the spacing as it currently exists.
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Adding my voice here too. Somewhere along the line the 'design language' turned into hating information density as an axiom and something to be avoided. Whitespace makes sense on a touch screen device where you need room for fingers. It does not make sense on a mac. Ironically at the same time, the design language often also uses very lightweight fonts with minimal contrast, which makes it difficult to read. Novice users may benefit, but once you gain experience in an app, it's no longer appropriate.
A Mac app is not a website. It's not an iOS app. It's not a flash app, or java app, or windows app. It's a Mac app. When you build to the lowest common denominator that's exactly what you get.
Hopefully Agile can mitigate the worst impact of the decision. The new signal app is terrible - way too much whitespace, and feels like the 'playskool' IM tool. Slack has a better UI, but still is clunky to use. But both are really heavy in terms of resource load, and neither feel like a native app.
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Thanks again for all the additional feedback folks, In relation to the light gray text @sameerchavan, can you give a bit more details or screenshots there? We've tried to pretty thoroughly test text color throughout the app to meet color contrast guidelines, so if there is some that we've missed I'd like to get it fixed.
Regarding font sizes, you should be able to increase and decrease the overall sizes of everything in the app by using the Zoom In and Zoom Out commands from the View menu.
As I mentioned before, we are definitely still testing out different sizing and spacing throughout the app, and will continue to iterate their based on our own research and customer feedback like this. And I actually have several mockups with search left aligned in the toolbar already that are being considered, so it may end up that way too :)
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I don't know anything about design language, but if you get rid of native apps, I am gone. Electron is garbage.
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Here's hoping that the resizing affects only content, not chrome, in a future release, and that it’s not bound to keyboard shortcuts because it’s way too easy for people to mess that up.
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Regardless of design language, this should never happen on a Mac: a Windows close button on the right of a modal, immovable window:
Regardless of design language, this should never happen on a Mac: a fake "menu" that cannot extend beyond the edge of its own window, necessitating scrolling:
If I wanted a lowest-common-denominator UI, I'd use Windows or Linux.
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Hopefully input like that of @KirkMcPike is helpful to the developers. I'm a clueless idiot, and my statements of, "the whole thing just feels off" aren't very helpful to them, I'm sure. So I'm glad there are users who can identify why things feel off. If we're stuck with an Electron UI, I hope that these sorts of paper cuts, which make the app feel foreign on the Mac, get ironed out over time.
I understand we're early in the process, and I applaud the team for putting up with a ton of grief, with grace and patience.
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While we're stuck with Electron, I think 1Password owes it to the users to make good-faith efforts to make the app nice to use. It is clear that with 1Password 8 Early Release that they haven't. Little touches like scroll bouncing, juttery animations, Windows-style interactions need a lot of work and they have not commented on whether they care to improve them at all.
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I think these are the biggest issues mac users are upset. It goes way past "ELECTRON BAD". The app just isn't designed to the level 1P7 is.
- The modals instead of individual windows
- "X" close instead of circles and right aligned actions instead of left
- No actionability on the left menu, I can't edit, drag, update or do anything. I can't even add or delete tags...
Like I could and have in other threads go on forever about UI issues that shows us that Mac was the last platform they moved to and as a result we went from first class to bottom of the list.
It just doesn't make sense. There is no way windows has surpassed mac in revenue for 1password. I just don't believe it however if I'm wrong 1p can let me know. Until then I yell and wonder why was mac such an afterthought on the 1p8 design?
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They also need to fully restore all the functionality taken out of the menubar. A good menubar is a hallmark of a good Mac app. The real Mac version of 1Password had a good menubar from which you could do most anything in the app. The new 1Password doesn't. Once again, it's like a lump of Linux dropped on the Mac.
And the menus don't even seem to be aware of what the user is doing. When I select my passport in the real Mac 1Password 7, I get this very helpful Edit menu:
When I choose my passport in the Linux app that is pretending to be Mac 1Password 8, I get this Edit menu that thinks my passport has a password:
Also, the Electron 1Password 8 can open individual items in proper new Mac windows. Why can't it open its preferences like that? And why doesn't it have a proper Mac-like "About 1Password..." window?
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every day I use 1p8 to test I hate it more and more. I've used 1p8 since mac's beta launch and I have never once said "this is better than 1p7". I find it no faster, no better, or easier to use.
It's been the exact opposite. Clunky unified OS that just pisses everyone off, slow first summon times and just poor actions.
I might as well just use 1PX in a browser or the web UI.
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And don't forget that as a bonus you can't switch to the All Tabs view in Safari or center text in Pages using the keyboard thanks to the global claiming of a widely used shortcut.
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I have been using and evolving with 1Password since it's inception in 2008. The main reason I have been a loyal user is because of its native Max experience. A new version should always be an improvement from the previous. Moving to a least-common-demoninator Electron environment and moving away from the native Mac experience we have had since 2008 is not a step in the right direction. I am very concerned by all the Beta user comments and have no interest whatsoever suffering through what in essence is a 1.0 release on this new platform after having faithfully used 1Password for the last 13 years.
Through my company, I have to suffer through using Slack on a daily basis. I don't get a choice in that since its a company standard. I do get a choice in the applications I use in my daily personal workflow. I would never consider using any app that is based on Electron.
Of course everyone at 1Password understands the commitment most Mac/Apple users have to the platform. Of course, you must realize that reviews such as this 9to5Mac review will be a thing of the past once 1Password8 is released on Electron. Bradley's comment sums it up best:
"...despite some excellent offerings from competitors, 1Password is an app I always come back to using. Of all the apps I tried, 1Password feel the most native to the Apple ecosystem...."
Because 1Password has been a native Mac app all these years, I have never once been interested in looking or evaluating any competitive product. Once 1Password 8 is running on Electron, I believe that will be the point in time for me to take a serious look at those other "excellent offerings". I'll have nothing to loose at that point.
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I wonder how much more of negative feedback it needs to stop with the actual v8 - and starting with a complete redesign.
In almost every thread I read negative feedback, not just small critics.
Still I do not understand why AgileBits still believes that v8 is on a good direction. It is not about some cosmetic bug fixing. It is the generally design (UI, access, interaction, ...) of the app. Fixing little bit or there does not vanish the problem(s) at all.0 -
They believe it is a good direction because it is easier for them.
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claus to understand you have to understand enterprise users. They don't care about flashy animations or what the app is built on. They care about:
- Fast deployment and management
- Unified UI across all platforms to ensure all user's have the same experience / no training needed
- Easy support, with a unified UI, they don't need multiple help documents or specific training for IT users
This is why companies who case enterprise users adopt things like electron, yes it saves development costs but it's more about going after enterprise money which is massive $$$$$$$.
This is also the reason they're looking at local deployments, it's not to help us out, it's for places like my company who wouldn't even look at 1p because they don't offer enterprise on site deployment.
The issue is, average customers and enterprise always have vastly different wants and needs. Use 1P7 until it's no longer usable on macos and then move to another company. Or be petty like some of us and move now.
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Or be petty like some of us and move now.
You might call it petty but I want them to hear our collective voices and realise this is a bad decision for everyone involved.
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blankspace, I don't know what qualifies as enterprise, but I was one of the two voices who got our 30+ person company to go to 1Password a couple years ago, although only a fraction of those people actually use it. I know several other people that got their firms to use it, too. The common factor was that the people driving the adoption were Mac users, even as it spread to Windows in those firms (although since the start of the pandemic, we've shifted to Mac-only for the sake of remote security). The Windows users didn't see what the big deal was — they were happy to use any of the cheaper, competing tools. The Mac users were the ones who advocated for paying the premium for a lovingly-crafted product that sweated the details. The Mac user base is smaller, but by my purely anecdotal observations it is influential, and steers decisions away from just picking the cheapest.
That's why I hope these paper cuts get figured out and fixed, if that is even possible with an Electron UI. I fear for the day when my firm chooses based on price, if there's no longer enough of a differentiation.
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@blankspace : Oh, yes, maybe you are right, I am petty! I am just a Mac user with one subscription license, paying yearly.
AgileBit should offer 1Pwd only for companies if it is more important to fulfil 1., 2. and 3. And not releasing an alpha for users like me and a few more Mac users. AgileBits wanted to hear feedback. What did they expect - that all likes/loves v8?
You know, I use 1Pwd since v2 was released. Almost every day, it is a product which I use a lot, I add notes, important data, I take care. For years! And now, to see these steps backwards and realising to work with v8 in the future?! No way.
It hurts ... I am not very interested to wait until v7 gets not the support it needs to run on newer OS/iOS/ - knowing that sooner or later v7 will be dead.
You see it from a different point of view. Yes, probably it is more important to offer an easy-to-use-and-maintaince product to enterprise users. And "normal" Mac users have to accept it. Or not, and leave Full stop.
PS: Oh, btw - I dont care flashy animations. But I am not an enterprise user, how does it work?!! And, btw, where are flashy animations in v7?0 -
There's a lot of great feedback in this thread. As has been mentioned, folks here are listening, and no decision is final.
If you haven't checked out @MrRooni's blog post 1Password 8: The Story So Far, there's some more background there on the current direction of the Mac app and other apps. In addition, looking at the constraints described there, it's quite possible the Mac app will use Swift UI again at some point when we don't have to worry about that choice cutting off a sizable share of macOS versions.
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That post is just after the fact justification for making a user-hostile decision. Will all of the egregious UI problems that don’t fit Mac UI conventions be fixed before the final release? It’s not reasonable to ask Mac users to live with a Linux UI for the hope that someday it might actually be a Mac app again.
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@rob: See, thats the point. Bugs and smaller cosmetic problem will be fixed, the 1Pwd team wants and is happy about this feedback. But it is about bugs ...
You started again with zero. In v8 are mistakes I have never thought about that they are possible.And the users have to tell you what to do?! You had an almost perfect v7!
But when someone writes about the GUI, user experience (...) in general we get only links to e.g. "The Story so far". But this is too easy, this is NOT listening to the users. It is whitewashing.
Why not releasing the Mac v8 first, before Linux and Windows? Critical threads do not appear in chronological order anymore.Please, dear 1Password team - if you do not want to hear this negative feedback, then say it! Say that it is not important anymore. You focus on v8 as it now, with bug fixing here and there. Thats all.
I have - had - the hope that AgileBits understand what is happening here and many other forums, social media, news pages which report ab v8, ... I saw 99% negative feedback about v8. Many users will move their vaults to a new home. Maybe AgileBilts reads it - but does not care about it.
Maybe the only way is to leave 1Pwd. And, if we are enough ex-1Pwd-users, maybe AgileBits understand what happened. But then it is too late ...
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" it's quite possible the Mac app will use Swift UI again at some point when we don't have to worry about that choice cutting off a sizable share of macOS versions."
Why not make that cut with 1P8? You're going to have to keep 1P7 under maintenance because of the anti-electron customers (or lose them). There are lots of apps that no longer work with things older that Catalina, and many not even that. So make 1P8 the go-forward, native app, and let legacy users ride 1p7 into the sunset until they upgrade to a modern supported OS. That's 2-3 years (because older than that even Apple doesn't support).
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I'll just chime in and say that I totally agree with @KirkMcPike 's comments about the menus in 1P8- they are way less functional than what we had in 1P7. Getting some of that functionality back up where it belongs would be a big help. As would having a platform-native preferences UI, with its close box in the proper left-aligned location. :-D
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@rob I've read that post before, and it still doesn't make sense for not using SwiftUI on macOS. I read the justification of not wanting to leave older user's behind but as of writing this, however I'm not sure if 1P team is aware the percentage of user's who could use a SwiftUI app stands above 85% as Mojave is the earliest OS usable. With Apple's new OS just around the corner, this will easily rocket up past 90% in the coming weeks as further people upgrade or purchase new computers.
Meaning macOS is getting the unified app allegedly because of a maximum of 10-15% of users on older devices who would probably stick with the standalone 1p7 since they clearly aren't looking for the latest software anyway if they're still on High Sierra.
https://gs.statcounter.com/os-version-market-share/macos/desktop/worldwide
Either way, keep listening to the feedback, it's not launched so realistically none of this matters. A lot of us have expressed our anger and have shown the sub cancellations, so balls in your court.
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@KirkMcPike some questions can only be answered with time. What I know for sure is that Mac is really important to us (and, not that it matters much, but also to me personally), and the reason we have an early access is to get feedback to guide our next steps. We've already started acting on some of it, and we're going to keep doing that.
@claus yep, you're right. We started over with 1Password 8 in many ways, and there are certainly drawbacks to that decision. We think it sets us up to provide a better user experience in the long run because fewer lines of code means fewer places for bugs to hide, and now when a Linux or Windows user finds a bug, the Mac will get that fix automatically. Anecdotally, I fixed an issue with item category grouping in Rust several weeks ago and it was so satisfying to see it roll out in all the apps.
Why not releasing the Mac v8 first, before Linux and Windows?
I think there are a lot of reasons here. As you've mentioned, 1Password 7 for Mac is a really nice and mature app. 1Password for Windows is a lot younger, and 1Password for Linux was nonexistent. So it makes sense, for example, to release an app for Linux that doesn't have all the features of 1Password for Mac, because previously there was no app at all. Indeed the Linux app was very warmly received, even though it was much less complete at its stable release than the Mac version was at its early access release.
@dougl and @blankspace fair points. Sounds like I overly simplified the factors going into that decision. There's only so much time in the day, but it would be great if we can get there. As for Mojave, a Mac dev could speak more to this, but I think the things we were using required Catalina.
To everyone, thanks for caring and thanks for commenting. We're always going to try to make the best product we can, and we rely on your feedback to make that happen.
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