Design language
Comments
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@claus Ultimately, we’re the vocal minority. AgileBits believes—rightly, I fear—that most users won’t notice; or if they do, they’ll just accept the slow and gradual decline because it doesn’t matter much to them.
@cyberskier From using a dozen different Electron apps in the past, it seems there are several qualities that are simply endemic to the framework. Remember that Electron is just a stripped down version of Chromium plus a Node.js runtime. This goes beyond higher resource use and extends into actual UX. I’m not confident they’re fixable, or at least one app would have fixed them by now.
To the team’s credit, 1PW 8 is easily the most native-feeling Electron app I’ve used. Granted it’s not an especially high bar to clear, but I can tell effort has been put in to make it as close as possible, given the inherent limitations of the framework. Personally? I don’t like it. There have been a lot of heated words in this topic, and I don’t want to add fuel to the fire, so I’ll leave it at that. Right now, I’m considering whether to keep using 1PW 7 or migrate to another service.
A question for the team: Any insights as to why Catalyst wasn’t chosen? It’s also imperfect, but I would prefer to use that than Electron.
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So the question "will you make your 'Mac' app actually work like a Mac app instead of a Linux app" is one that can "only be answered in time"?
Do y'all even understand why your subscribers who care about having real Mac software are upset?
On this forum some AgileBits employees have actually defended a modal, completely unmovable, close-button-on-the-right, can't-even-be-closed-with-Command-W preferences window as "better" than a proper window. Is that supposed to be encouraging to people who want software that works the way it is supposed to?
This is Microsoft Word 6.0 all over again.
Apple just went through this themselves with their botched redesign of Safari 15. They did the right thing about that. Will you?
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Thanks Rob, and that makes sense...Catalina broke a bunch of stuff. Good news is that Mojave will be EOL in October 2022, so that's not that far out. Is it really worth all the electron effort/pushback for something that has a one-year overlap? 1P7 could easily cover that as it dwindles.
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@rob: "... and the reason we have an early access is to get feedback to guide our next step."
I am sorry, but this is not an "Early Access" version! Early access would have been before Linux/Windows, sometime in spring/early summer. But not releasing it the month before the final version will be released - and more or less all GUI and functionality is "written in stone".
For me it seems that you knew that Mac user will complain a lot (as we can see now), but now it is easier to say that the final v8 will be (more or less) as it is now. No chance to go in another (and better) direction.0 -
@rob Ideally, the lack of contextual edit menu options as shown by @KirkMcPike will be considered a regression. It is a regression in functionality and should come back in some way, even if it isn’t in the menu (the items aren’t very discoverable there, but I do consider the lack of menu items as compared to 1Password 7 a step backwards).
This would be a really good opportunity for Quick Answer to step up to the plate. Not only should it be contextual related to the app and/or webpage that you’re on, it should have contextual options and adjustments based on the item type. I just searched for one of my credit cards and it had
⌘ShiftCto copy my password. Now, maybe that means my PIN (but should probably be the CVV as that is what is required far more often), but that label should not be static. The right arrow shows me this for the same credit card.
Even worse, it show the exact same thing for a document, which literally has nothing that can be operated on that way. I’ve raised other issues about the regressions for document handling (save to the
~/Downloadsfolder should not be the default option, although it should probably be an option), but this is somewhat ridiculous.I think that there's been way too much assumption of bad faith by commenters; I do think that this public early access release was way too early because while I’m successfully using 1Password right now, it’s only because I’ve installed all of the other pieces in all of the other browsers and the new(-ish) Safari extension. My familiar keystrokes are missing. Quick Access is completely useless compared to 1Password Mini (it should never be searching all vaults unless that is what I tell it to be searching; I have a collection that contains the vaults I want searched; it should allow switching between collections or accounts). The modals block use of the application in ways that are fundamentally wrong, especially for a Mac app.
I think things can be improved. But there are flows that are so substantially broken that when I am done with my testing here, I will be going back to 1Password 7 and the other browser plug-ins and not upgrading again until I see that a number of the wrong-for-Mac and simply-wrong design items here are resolved. What I’m not sure of is that you can meaningfully have a single Electron codebase that runs on macOS and Windows and Linux. The latter two? Sure. The two types of GUI systems work similarly enough that it really doesn’t matter. If you fix the things that I and others have suggested, you’re not going to see any benefit from a single codebase.
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On the subject of menus and command discoverability, one advantage of using native OSX menus (vs. in-Electron simulated menus) is that standard OSX menu items are automatically searchable and discoverable using the system-wide "Help" menu. So in 1P7, if I am not sure whether a given command lives under "File" or "Item", I can instead select the "Help" menu, start typing the command's name, and then by hovering over the matching search result, I will be shown exactly where to find the command. I've attached a screenshot but it's not an ideal way to demonstrate the behavior. It's one of my favorite subtle features of Mac OS, though- it's incredibly useful!
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I definitely agree about the drop downs. The native drop downs already exist - they appear when you right-click. The left-click menus should use those same native drop downs. It's strange to have two different looking menus that do the same thing.
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I feel AgileBits would be criticised whatever they did. They had released 1PW8 for Linux, which was well worth doing, and also for Windows, which was probably also worth doing. They had tried to produce a native version for Mac using SwiftUI but failed (I don't think anyone has said why, but it may be a problem with SwiftUI itself). If they had started again with another approach, or waited until SwiftUI worked better, then they would have got loads of criticism for leaving Mac users behind compared with Linux and Windows users. Releasing an Electron version was probably their best option, even though it is not very satisfactory.
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Interesting to see how picky many users seem to be - I see differences in UI, but I simply use the software and don't really care about these minor app aspects. Important is the functionality of an app. If edges are rounded or not, if scrolling has momentum, if ui elements have animations - this is totally unimportant for my perception of an app.
Important for me are facts:- does the app do for what I got the app
- as password manager, is the app designed with security in mind
- the app is not complicated to understand
- are the most used functions fast and convenient to use
If an app is beautiful, it's nice, but a password manager doesn't need to be beautiful. I don't buy a password manager because it's beautiful or more beautiful than a competitor. I get it, because it's fulfilling its role as password manager better than its competitors.
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Having read this entire thread, I can see that I'm in the minority but I really like new design. It feels cleaner and more modern to me, and if I'm being honest that is probably because my UIs tend to look the same (soft colors, a little extra whitespace, etc).
Obviously that is as subjective as everyone else's opinion.
I can't argue with the Electron opinions though: it is hard to find a shining example of Electron-based UIs on the Mac. On Windows, terrible UIs are so common that most people don't even notice them; Mac users are quite a bit more picky in that regard.
I hope that 1P ends up being one of the (very, very few) standout Electron apps in the world because its really is my favorite password manager but it's going to be an uphill battle. Look at the wreck Evernote made of its Mac user base attempting to do the same thing. What 1P might have going for it, is that it's a simpler application. There are less functions, less menus, less overall complexity.
So here's hoping you pull it off!
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This would be a really good opportunity for Quick Answer to step up to the plate. Not only should it be contextual related to the app and/or webpage that you’re on, it should have contextual options and adjustments based on the item type. I just searched for one of my credit cards and it had ⌘ShiftC to copy my password. Now, maybe that means my PIN (but should probably be the CVV as that is what is required far more often), but that label should not be static. The right arrow shows me this for the same credit card.
Great feedback, @austin! I am sure we could do this better.
Quick Access is completely useless compared to 1Password Mini (it should never be searching all vaults unless that is what I tell it to be searching; I have a collection that contains the vaults I want searched; it should allow switching between collections or accounts).
The work already started to get this improved.
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@StevenBedrick It's an extremely underrated feature. I also use Raycast, which taps into this functionality and makes finding and accessing menus even quicker.
@bradleysm I think many/most are fine with the actual appearance (though I’m on the “too much whitespace” bandwagon, I like the rest). It’s just the Electron stuff really mars what would otherwise be a great experience. We can hope all we want, but Electron has fundamental limitations that will prevent it from ever feeling like a truly native app.
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Looking at those screenshots, all of the widgets look like Mac widgets and are in the proper places. I’d imagine that the app had no pop down menus that were limited to the height of the window. It looks like the preferences window is movable. And having used version 4 back in the day, it had a fully fleshed out set of menus in the menubar. So despite some custom design flair, it worked and felt just like a regular Mac app.
1Password 8 does not.
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Looking at those screenshots, all of the widgets look like Mac widgets and are in the proper places.
Proper places? The main window didn't even have a title bar. Sure, this is something that is common today but it wasn't the case back in 2013.
Look at tabs in Safari 15 on Monterey. Are they even close to anything we have seen in macOS before?
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Windows control buttons belong on the left. They are on the left here. Little things like that.
If you would fix the UI on 1Password 8 so that the preferences window was a real, movable, non-modal window with a proper close button on the left, so that the “new item” menu pop down wasn’t truncated to the the height of the main window, so that the disclose/reveal widgets used the proper animation to fold up and unfurl their contents, so that the menus in the menubar were as thorough as they were in version 7, it would get you like 90% of the way towards being an actual Mac app as opposed to a Linux app running in the Mac. Are y’all planning to address any of these Mac UX-breaking problems?
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Windows control buttons belong on the left. They are on the left here. Little things like that.
Is this really the UX-breaking problem though? Apple seems to be ok with shipping their apps with buttons on the right. And you can't move them either.
I like that you keep 1Password to a higher standard and we are certainly striving to match that bar. I just wish we had a bit of leeway in some cases.
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it would get you like 90% of the way towards being an actual Mac app as opposed to a Linux app running in the Mac.
The Linux app does not have support for Touch ID or Apple Watch unlock. It is not code-signed, sandboxed, or notarized. There is no Universal Linux binary. It does not use Secure Enclave or macOS Launch Services.
These feature may not be in-your-face but they are super important for a great macOS experience.
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Is this really the UX-breaking problem though?
Yes.
I posted this in a different message (probably on a different thread), but there are at least three places where the modals have broken my ability to use features in 1Password 8.
- Preferences. This is an obvious and easy one, but when I was doing initial setup, I wanted to look at the settings and what was in 1Password. The bonkers decision to make this an in-window modal meant that I could not do so—which is different than pretty much every other macOS app, unless it’s Catalyst (as you’re showing).
- Add a new account. I have my work 1Password account information stored in my personal 1Password account. When I was presented the “add a new account” modal, I could not use 1Password to fill the information into 1Password without copying the data into my system clipboard and pasting it into somewhere else so that I could copy everything required.
- Manage collections. OMG this is a nightmare to work with to the point where I can’t possibly see using it because it’s a modal. This is a signature feature touted by Dave and I hate it because it’s a modal and doesn’t let me explore at the same time as I’m working with it. There are other problems with how collections are integrated (no reordering, which means that “all vaults” is always “all vaults”, even though that is NEVER what I want because I have access to my parents’ vault). Not even remotely close to useful.
Seriously:
A modal window is a secondary window that opens on top of the main one. Users have to interact with it before they can carry out their task and return to the main window.
You should use modal windows when there are steps the user needs to do before the task can be completed. Using a modal window instead of a full page allows users to maintain the context of their task
https://uxmovement.com/forms/best-practices-for-modal-windows/
Absolutely none of the three items are things that I should do before anything else. Maybe adding the first account, but that‘s no reason to use modal windows at all and certainly never the garbage modals provided by Electron.
The modals here are a usability nightmare and will 100% hinder my adoption of 1Password 8 and I will be recommending against any of my family upgrading to 1Password 8 if they are on a Mac. The behaviours here are complete regressions and should not be accepted as remotely acceptably by anyone in the 1Password family. Just because Windows and Linux users don’t recognize these modals as wrong and broken does not mean that they aren’t wrong and broken. You have an opportunity to improve the UX for all your target platforms. Why not do so?
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@roustem I apologize, I can't figure out how to quote posts on here. So, in order:
Safari 15 Tabs: Yes, those look basically exactly like the sheet-picker UI in Numbers on Big Sur. I expect that style of "Tab" will replace most instances of the older design in a future macOS release.
The Home App on Mac is garbage. Absolute, total garbage. The entire first generation of Catalyst apps were pretty bad. However, the second generation (Messages, Maps, Podcasts) look and feel like proper Mac apps.
Linux: I'm not talking about the core technologies. I am upset with the UI. I use the Mac because apps with proper Mac UIs are better than apps without proper Mac UIs, even in some cases where the app without the proper Mac UI has better tech under the hood.
But I notice that you ignored my question. I listed a handful of glaring violations of Mac UI expectations. Are these going to get fixed?
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@Ben Right you are! Apologies, that one's on me- I missed that part of the menu and didn't check before writing. Thanks!
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@sameerchavan You are correct that this is broken; if you have gone into the “details” of an item, press the left arrow to get out of it.
No, this is not intuitive, correct, or documented anywhere.
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The Quick Access feature is a recent addition, so there are certainly some rough edges. Remember that this is an early access, not a final product, so there will be bugs and we appreciate the reports. :)
That said, I think this particular Quick Access bug has been fixed, at least in the latest nightly release. If I've selected an item and I try to search again, I'm correctly returned to search results without needing to exit the item view manually.
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I had updated your new beta build. But quick access search still stuck on the first search. No matter what I do, it keeps the same text in the search bar.
Both
Escandxbutton clear the text for me. Also, if you dismiss the Quick Access, the search text will automatically reset after a few seconds. There is a timeout that is useful if you want, for example, copy username, password, and TOTP code from the same item, so that you don't have to search for it again every time.Note that I am currently on the Nightly build 80202004, the new beta will be out this week.
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@KirkMcPike @roustem Absolutely agree - the home app is the single worst piece of UX to come out of Apple since...well, I can't remember. Maybe the ][C? Of all the examples, that's not the one to use.
It's not one specific thing that needs to be fixed, it's a constant stream of friction every time you use the app. Am I in preferences all the time? No. But the non-modal windows is annoying when I am. The close icon in the right? No, but when I go to close it, my muscle memory is to the left. And so on. It's this constant undertone that "I'm not a mac app".
And that's just sad, given Agile's long history and roots on the mac. It's like you've traded in your really cool collection of mustang's and corvettes for a yugo.
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Wow, I've been out of the party for too long…
I must say that I was unfamiliar with the term Electron App, but upon doing some research, all of the apps that I find that are less than the macOS experience that I have come to love over these 30 years are in fact Electron apps.
Applications like Slack, Discord, and Teams (well that's changing) drive me crazy when I use them.
They don't use Apple's built in dictionaries, spell checker, and grammar checker, so none of my spellings, text replacements carry over, they don't support the Mac's enhanced pasting options and item sharing options. These may not seem like big things but I use these features extensively even in 1Password 7. I have a very extensive dictionary of custom words and text replacements that I use everywhere. When I copy information into my 1P items, I use transformations all the time to get things sections of text to be all lowercase, title-case or uppercase. Oh and Electron apps don't support Apple's Data detectors, Dictionary lookups, searching with your chosen search engine. You think why would I need this, I use secure notes extensively, I work with multiple languages, and I'm always copying content into 1Password and reformatting it to meet my conventions. I use every single category within 1Password 7.
In the areas of accessibility, electron apps fail even more miserably. Speaking selections of text is inconsistent, if even available at all and doesn't respect my settings at all. When speaking text in Discord, I have no idea where it is getting its crappy voice it is using; Slack, I can't speak text at all.
Sharing is an item from 1P7 is so easy, just right-click select share and I can AirDrop an item to another macOS or iOS 1P7 user. So easy.
Yes, I use Slack and Discord everyday for my work and organizations but only because it is better than nothing and better than having to use them in a web browser, but the experience is not that much better than an encapsulated web viewer screen. 1Password a utility application and thus needs to have deep integration with the OS that it is on to it's full potential.
Don't get me started on the insistence that the Preferences window is part of the main display window. I've always been frustrated by that because often I'm wanting to change a preference and see the changes in the live windows and sometimes I like to keep it open depending on what I'm doing. Going back and forth within a single window is so annoying.
Anyways, it looks like you're pretty head strong fixed on this decision which I feel is a great shame. I've been using 1Password since version 2 and have always promoted the app as a first class macOS application and a Canadian one at that.
I can't see how I'd want to downgrade this experience and will be looking to remain on 1Password 7 for as long as I can. Personally 1P6 I must say was the best version ever but I eventually came over to 1P7. However, what I see for 1Password 8 is way too much of a downgrade experience for me. I'm loosing too much of the macOS experience that I expect.
Please when 1P8 is released, release the iOS version of 1P8 as a new software rather than an upgrade so that users can choose which version they want to use.
You know me from my previous posts. I've been a proud beta tester and always provided well thought out and detailed usability reports in the past. But with a move to Electron UI, I feel my ability to be a supportive feedback contributor is coming to a close. I've already paid my yearly dues… I will bide my time on 1P7 for as long as I can and hope that you can live up to your former company name of being AgileBits and pivoting on this decision to support a native macOS app in the future.
At least I still have my standalone license.
Good luck folks, looks like you're going to need it.
Sincerely, skippingrock.0
