Sync between two Mac with folder

hansjoachim

Hello

I use 1Password 4 on my MBP and iMac.
Both Mac OS X 10.9.4
They work in the same local network via Router fritzbox and I have access when I carry out in finder with server connect.

Today I check the Login datas on both Macs and see they are different.

So maybe I made a mistake in the past.
Now I have shut down the Sync > folder on the MBP.

Ich which way must I define the Sync method on MBP and / or iMac?

1) Is that possible to sync the data with folder concept?
2) Must I connect first both Macs before I carry out sync?
3) Is that right that data stored only in User/Name/Application Support/1Password 4?
4) Must I define a separate folder?

Regards

Jochen

Megan

Hi Jochen ( @hansjoachim‌ ),

Please have a read through of our Folder Sync Guide for instructions on how to set up folder sync. Please note that Folder sync will require a secondary sync solution to carry out the actual syncing. Similar to the way that Dropbox does the heavy lifting when you use Dropbox sync, Folder sync simply stores your 1Password.agilekeychain file in a local folder so that the program you choose can sync the folder to another computer.

Is that right that data stored only in User/Name/Application Support/1Password 4? 4) Must I define a separate folder?

This is the default location of your local .sqlite datafile. Your data is always stored here, regardless of whether you have sync set up or not. This folder should not be synced, however. To sync your datafile, please follow the instructions above and define a separate folder to store the 1Password.agilekeychain file in.

I hope this helps, but we're here if you have any further questions or concerns!

hansjoachim

Hello Megan
Thanks for quick feedback.

Please have a read through of our Folder Sync Guide for instructions on how to set up folder sync.
Please note that Folder sync will require a secondary sync solution to carry out the actual syncing.

I read the instruction before but I don't understand it.
Maybe the reason is that I'm not english native speaker.
Now I think it's more clear.

Please have a look in attachment.

1Password 4 sync the relevant datas with an additional folder on iMac and MBP.
SyncMate for example sync the relevant datas from iMac to MBP.

Is that right?

Regards

Jochen

hansjoachim

Sorry for 3 attachment. I cannot delete 2 attachments.

Jochen

chrisdj

Hi @hansjoachim‌,

I edited your post to remove the extra attachments. :)

Yes, that diagram looks correct. Each Mac will sync out to a local folder on the Mac. You can then use SyncMate to target those folders to keep them in sync.

vr8ce

The instructions are much sparser than they should be. It only addresses one side of the equation, and doesn't address the specific actions to perform to sync two computers at all.

Let's say we configure 1Pwd on two computers, C1 and C2, to sync to a folder. We now have folder A on Computer C1 with C1's keychain, and folder B on Computer C2 with C2's keychain. What actions, in detail, do we perform in order to get the two synced with each other, and the combined C1/C2 data in each keychain?

1. Do we copy the keychain from folder A to folder B, and copy the keychain from folder B to folder A?
2. Or do we just copy the keychain from folder A to folder B, with further steps to come after we sync C2?
   Whichever we do, how do we force 1Pwd to re-sync the folder, i.e. to read the folder and do whatever is needed?

If we were only supposed to do #2 above, what do we do after we get C2 in sync? Do we then copy the newly synced keychain from folder B (which should now include C1/C2 combined data) to folder A and then force C1's 1Pwd to re-sync with that file?

And what values does 1Pwd use to sync — the name, the URL, some combination, or some internal value we can't see? If C1 and C2 both started from the same combined keychain once upon a time but have drifted over time, are we going to end up with a fistful of dups after we sync the two with each other, or is 1Pwd smart enough not to do that?

And, depending on the answer to that, how would we ever get the two in sync?
That is, we sync C1 to C2, which causes dups. We eliminate the dups, but in doing so, eliminate some dups that originated in C1.
We then take C2's new keychain, containing the combined C1/C2 data, back over to C1 to sync. But we again have dups, because now C1 and C2 differs entries for the same web site disagree in some way. We eliminate those dups, copy the keychain back over to C2, and start all over.
That could go on infinitely.
Which I assume means that 1Pwd is smarter than that. But how is it smart? :)

Either your existing page should include answers to these question, or you should have a more detailed "How to get two 1PwD computers initially synced" page that answers them.

Thanks!

hansjoachim

Yes, that diagram looks correct. Each Mac will sync out to a local folder on the Mac. You can then use SyncMate to target those folders to keep them in sync.

I have carry out. On both Mac I have a sync folder.
After Sync I see in this folder the file 1Password.agilekeychain.
OK.

Then I carry out the sync between both Mac with application Chronosync.
It works but now I have double Logins on both Macs.
I carry out bidirektional sync with Chronosync.

What can be the problem?

Jochen

hansjoachim

Hello

Now I see that only the name of Login Name the same but the relevant data inside (password or login or website data) different.
So I must delete manuell the not relevant Logins.

Jochen

sjk

Hi @vr8ce,

Thanks for your detailed questions and feedback about the Folder Sync instructions.

In general, there are many methods of syncing data in folders that 1Password has been configured to Folder Sync with and some will be more effective than others. Simply copying keychain vaults between those folders will be problematic because it can replace data that should be retained.

I don't have full answers for you at the moment so will defer a more complete response. And there's already a request filed to expand and improve Folder Sync documentation, including some specific configuration examples. Your interest has been noted. :)

ref: DOCS-226

sjk

Hi Jochen ( @hansjoachim ),

I'm sorry you're having some trouble getting your 1Password data properly synced with the Folder Sync configuration you're using.

Yes, that diagram looks correct. Each Mac will sync out to a local folder on the Mac. You can then use SyncMate to target those folders to keep them in sync.

I have carry out. On both Mac I have a sync folder.

After Sync I see in this folder the file 1Password.agilekeychain.
OK.

Then I carry out the sync between both Mac with application Chronosync.

It works but now I have double Logins on both Macs.
I carry out bidirektional sync with Chronosync.

Did you decide to use ChronoSync instead of SyncMate to synchronize the folders that Folder Sync is configured with on each Mac? And are you also using ChronoAgent?

Now I see that only the name of Login Name the same but the relevant data inside (password or login or website data) different. So I must delete manuell the not relevant Logins.

Before syncing, did Login items have different data on each Mac where you're now seeing "double Logins on both Macs"?

This is going to be tricky to get sorted out here so we'd like to continue helping you directly through email. To do that, please send us a Diagnostics Report from both of your Macs, along with a link to this topic and your forum username, to support+forum@agilebits.com. If would be helpful if you can also include screenshots of the Setup and Options tabs in the ChronoSync Synchronizer you're using to do the syncing. And if you leave a quick comment here after sending the email we'll keep an extra eye open for its arrival. :)

Thanks in advance!

hansjoachim

@sjk‌ Thanks for feedback

Did you decide to use ChronoSync instead of SyncMate to synchronize the folders that Folder Sync is configured with on each Mac? And are you also using ChronoAgent?

Yes I would use ChronoSync, but I'm not buy ChronoSync yet. I test ChronoSync.
Yes, I have on MBP > User/1PW4_MBP_Sync/1Password.agilekeychain.
Yes, I have on iMac > User/1PW4_iMac_Sync/1Password.agilekeychain.

The application ChronoSync is installed on MBP only.

No, I don't have ChronoAgent.

Additionally question.

After first Sync it don't work again.

A message come, see screenshot.

Now I don't understand the concept of Sync.

Assumption:

On MBP are following 5 Login data available.

A, C, E, G, I.

On iMac are following 5 Login data available.

B, D, F, H, J.

After Sync with ChronoSync or other application it should be on both Mac.

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J

In which way works the Sync?

The Login data (keychains) are only in one file named "1Password.agilekeychain" on both Mac.

Chronosync or other application looks still to this file and not inside this file?
The name of file is the same, only dates and times are different.
The modification of keychains are inside the file and a sync application don't see inside the file.

Jochen

vr8ce

I'm afraid I don't understand. "Syncing" two folders, however it's done, is just keeping the contents of each folder the same.
In this case, I've put the keychain on each machine in a new folder, so it is the only file in the folder. Thus, "syncing" the folder and copying the keychain is the same thing.
Or do you mean that whatever is doing the syncing should be doing by delving into the keychain, i.e. in the contents of the keychain itself? That seems dangerous in the extreme. How is an external tool supposed to know what is and isn't important in that package? Sync tools wouldn't have any reason to open that package, anymore than they would open an app package. They're going to treat the .keychain "thing" as a file, just as the OS intends it, just as they treat abc.app as a file. They don't sync two apps by trying to sync the parts.

It seems that, absent these instructions, you really don't have a way to sync two computers together via folders. That's disapointing.

hansjoachim

That's disapointing.

I think sometimes we are in stone age of computers and software.

Jochen

hansjoachim

Hello

Feedback from agilebits come very quick (thanks) normally.
Today there is no answer to my question in No. 11.
So I assume it is not possible carry out Sync for seperate Login items with folder concept and other methods.

Jochen

sjk

Hi Jochen ( @hansjoachim ),

Thanks for the addition information you've posted about your syncing situation. I'm sorry we haven't been able to reply again here sooner.

As I mentioned in post #10, we would like to continue helping you with this directly through email. Some folks here who speak German and that might make communications easier and quicker for you. Please email us Diagnostics Reports from both of your Macs (see post #10) and we can carry on from there. :)

hansjoachim

Hello sjk

Thanks for feedback.

I have send an email on base Your post #10.
But I thought I need only the simple answer Yes or No.

On MBP are following 5 Login data available.

A, C, E, G, I.

On iMac are following 5 Login data available.

B, D, F, H, J.

After Sync with ChronoSync or other application it should be on both Mac.

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J

Jochen

sjk

Hi @vr8ce,

I don't have complete answers to all of your questions yet, but want to address a few points from your most recent post:

Or do you mean that whatever is doing the syncing should be doing by delving into the keychain, i.e. in the contents of the keychain itself? That seems dangerous in the extreme. …

If, for example, you monitor how Dropbox updates Agile Keychain vaults it's doing it at an individual file level within them.

There are issues with handling conflict resolution; I'll get a better explanation of that.

Sync tools wouldn't have any reason to open that package, anymore than they would open an app package. They're going to treat the .keychain "thing" as a file, just as the OS intends it, just as they treat abc.app as a file. They don't sync two apps by trying to sync the parts.

Syncing a data bundle is likely to be different than syncing an application bundle. The former will typically be bi-directional; the latter will be uni-directional (which may behave as a copy).

It seems that, absent these instructions, you really don't have a way to sync two computers together via folders. That's disapointing.

Even with the current lack of specific instructions and examples, which we intend to improve, people are successfully doing folder-to-folder syncing of 1Password data (outside of 1Password) that Folder Sync configuration (in 1Password) recognizes. I'll fill in more details for you as soon as I have them.

hansjoachim

@sjk‌
Thanks for feedback.
I'm not good enough in english language so I don't understand Your answer good.

Let me give two examples.

I use Omnifocus on two Mac.
When I add or delete or change a task in OF on MBP or iMac the Sync of OF do it automatic on other Mac.

I use DevonThink Pro Office on two Mac.
When I add or delete or change an item in DT on MBP or iMac the Sync of DT do it automatic on other Mac.

So I have the same information on both Mac in time.

That's my understanding of Synchronization.

I thought I can do this in the same way with 1Password 4.
I add or delete or change a Login data on MBP and some times later the same is in 1Password 4 on iMac.

Sorry for misunderstanding maybe.

Jochen

Megan

Hi Jochen ( @hansjoachim ),

@sjk isn't in today, so I'll do my best to help out here.

Your understanding of synchronization is good, and you can indeed do this with 1Password.

Unfortunately, unlike OmniFocus or DevonThink Pro, 1Password doesn't have a built-in native sync. You have to choose to sync using either iCloud, Dropbox or Folder Sync. Both iCloud and Dropbox will do the magical syncing behind-the-scenes for you (similar to the way that you describe with OmniFocus and DevonThink Pro), but Folder Sync is offered as a solution for users who do not want to use Dropbox or iCloud but have a secondary sync solution in place.

When you choose Folder Sync, you also have to choose another sync service to keep the folders in sync. This makes it difficult for us to provide specific instructions beyond the part that 1Password is able to do (which is put your data into a specific folder, and update it whenever you make a change), as each user could choose a different sync service and we are unable to test each one.

In any case, we've located your Diagnostics Report in our email system. I've added the relevant details to the email thread to make it easier for our support team to get up to speed on things. We'll keep the conversation going directly via email now to avoid confusing things between here and there.

ref: MRR-27947-337

hansjoachim

@Thanks Megan.

So I will wait for feedback of your support.

Jochen

hansjoachim

@Megan‌

Sorry for this additionally post.
Now I think that an external application cannot sync 1PW4 Login datas on 2 Mac.

It would be the same if we see two removal vans driving in the street and both have the same weight.
We cannot see what's inside the removal vans.
It can be a big sofa or three small arm chairs.
Only when we open the door we see what's inside.

Or you must give a list with items to the driver or put it outside of removal vans so we can see the content.

Jochen

Megan

Hi Jochen ( @hansjoachim‌ ),

I've added your recent thoughts to the email thread. I know that sync can seem complicated, but we'll do the best we can to get you sorted out as soon as possible!

Thanks for your patience. :)

vr8ce

What others have figured out on their own, @sjk, is irrelevant — the point is, AgileBits doesn't have a way to sync two computers without using Dropbox or iCloud. Per Megan, "1Password doesn't have a native sync," and "have a secondary sync solution in place" and "we are unable to test each one."

In other words, you (AgileBits) provide a way to get the keychain to the folder, and after that you're on your own. That is not a sync solution.

You already have a non-cloud based sync solution for iOS to Mac, so I see no reason why you could not, and do not, do so for Mac to Mac. The fact you do not is, as I said, disappointing. I'll add a "very" to that this time, since it's now clearer that you do not have such a solution.

chrisdj

Hi @vr8ce‌,

We provide Folder Sync as an option for users who request a specific sync service that we have not been able to implement yet. What happens is we sync out data to an agilekeychain in a folder, and we keep sync going back and forth between the main database and that folder. A user can then use another service of their choice to sync that folder containing the agilekeychain to another computer, which can then target that folder for sync as well.

Is it a perfect solution? Hardly. Does it work? It sure seems to. The hard part here is that the sync solution between computers is entirely user preference. We can't cover all the bases, as there are too many possibilities. If someone gets stuck in their setup, we have an awesome support team who is always willing to help sort things out.

While we may not support a requested sync service in code, that does not mean our users are unsupported.

vr8ce

We could probably go back and forth several more times, but let's don't. You don't have a Mac-to-Mac sync option except the cloud. ("The sync solution between computers is entirely user preference.")

There is no reason not to have wifi sync Mac to Mac just like exists for Mac to iOS. It's 2014, for crying out loud. Telling users to sync something themselves is, IMO, ridiculous.

And in case it's not obvious, consider this a request for 1Password to provide said network Mac-to-Mac sync.

Thanks for your time.

sjk

Hi @vr8ce,

We could probably go back and forth several more times, but let's don't.

If you'd like to continue the discussion or cut it off after this please feel free either way. :)

You don't have a Mac-to-Mac sync option except the cloud. ("The sync solution between computers is entirely user preference.")

That the current non-cloud Mac-to-Mac sync option is (to quote @chrisdj‌ again) "entirely user preference" is different than it not existing at all.

I think we can agree it's currently not a bundled option with 1Password?

And, as @chrisdj‌ mentioned:

If someone gets stuck in their setup, we have an awesome support team who is always willing to help sort things out.

That applies to whatever syncing setup someone's using with 1Password.

There is no reason not to have wifi sync Mac to Mac just like exists for Mac to iOS. It's 2014, for crying out loud. Telling users to sync something themselves is, IMO, ridiculous.

Aren't most people using cloud syncing in 2014? :)

Your point is taken and we do appreciate it.

And in case it's not obvious, consider this a request for 1Password to provide said network Mac-to-Mac sync.

Duly noted; thanks!

ref: OPM-2091

hansjoachim

I think it's very IMPORTANT that user of 1Password have the the possibility to sync there data without external services!!!
And it must be a professionally solution.
Thats my idea.

Jochen

hansjoachim

Sorry. Please delete double attachment.
I don't know in which way I can insert an attachment that we see only one without small preview?

Jochen

chrisdj

Hi @hansjoachim‌,

I removed the double attachment, and appreciate your mockup.

For all involved I created an internal request for direct Wi-Fi sync without needing an iOS device int he middle a while back. @sjk & I have upped its priority. We're in the final stretch for our Fall releases right now, so don't expect it for those. After that, @sjk‌ and I will make plenty of noise to get this moving. And who knows, maybe once things start being investigated on how to implement it, something even better may come around. It wouldn't be the first time in AgileBits history that something like that happened.

Thanks for all your input!

jamjar36

I previously just copied the file 1Password.agilekeychain found in my MacPro user library>Application Support>1Password folder to the same position in my MacBookPro, but that does NOT seem work now.

I only periodically use the laptop while traveling and do not want to sync old logins from the MBP back to the iCloud.

What is the best way to get the up-to-date file from the MP to the MBP?

I am quite happy with WIFI Sync to my phone and iPad from the MP.

Megan

Hi @jamjar36,

That solution would have worked for 1Password 3, but we'll need to revise it a bit for 1Password 4. Here's what we'll do:

• On your MacPro, go to Preferences > Sync and select Folder Sync
• Select a memorable location (such as your desktop)
• Confirm
• 1Password will create a 1Password.agilekeychain file in that location
• Using a USB drive, copy that 1Password.agilekeychain file and save it onto your MacBook Pro in a memorable location
• Open 1Password on your MacBook Pro and go to Preferences > Sync and select Folder Sync
• Point 1Password at the 1Password.agilekeychain file you've just saved

If your database on the MacBook Pro is significantly different than your updated 1Password.agilekeychain file, 1Password may warn you that the data is different. You can enter your Master Password to confirm the sync, and 1Password will merge your data, giving the newer edits priority.

I hope this helps, but we're here if you have any further questions or concerns!