Electron
Comments
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I was really pleased to see the twitter news about a new version and downloaded it right away. Seconds after opening it the first time, something felt strange and I head over to this forum, hit ⌘+F and typed “electron” in hope it won't show any results. So here we are :-(
I completely understand why developers love Electron. From a user perspective it feels like a good movie with autotranslated, computerized voiceover and all animated characters with no soul – just the initial idea/storybook is identical.
In my opinion everything is wrong about the Electon approach if your company consists of more then two developers and you are serious about a platform. The relationship between developers and users on the Mac is special. 1P8 does not fulfill the “it just works” approach for me.
TBH, I just looked up the date, when I need to cancel my subscription. I'm a user since day 1 and still suffer from the move to the web extension (missing htaccess-autofill …).
Thats so sad because 1P is all about security and I don’t want to compromise on that side.
I really hope you reconcider your choice.
Best regards
Chriz0 -
I hate Electron, or more precisely badly written apps in Electron. That being said, I installed the beta + beta ext. on every browser and :
- I like the look of it (I always hated the small search...)
- It seems to work
- the lag when using the safari ext. is annoying, fix this pronto guys...
- I was already using the v8 on Windows so I'm not surprised.
Now, let's be clear: I understand it's a beta and I'll wait until you decide it's "done". Then I'll decide if I'm a happy customer. Simple. No hate, no angry post here. I'm a customer since the v2 and a journalist pushing 1P for years, and the deal is simple: fuck this up, at this price per year, and I think it will be a nice gift to bitwarden... And I really don't want you to fail here because I don't look forward for a migration with OTP, etc. ;)
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I'm going to hold my hands up and admit that I have not tried the v8 beta app. My password database is too important to risk with betas, but after reading this thread I wanted to add my voice as another long-time and discontented user.
And apologies - this turned out to be longer thank I originally intended. It is because I care. A lot.
1Password was the very first application that I bought for macOS when I bought my first MacBook about 10 years ago. It is the first thing I install when I upgrade, and the first application I recommend to new macOS and iOS users. Acknowledging that what we are talking about here is a first beta release and that things will changer, I suspect that is about to change.
Based on the information shared so far, Electron is just one component. There is the new Rust backend which, although I appreciate and understand the technical implications, means nothing to me when I put my Average End User hat on.
What does affect me is the Electron frontend. I cannot count how many times a day I call on 1Password. If all of those times are going to give me repeated paper cuts because of the Electron Experience then I am not interested, at all.
The issues shared by others in this thread echo my experiences with other Electron apps on Mac. They are what they are - web UIs bounded by the window that contains them, and you end up with components that you cannot see until you make the window large enough (which might not be possible with long lists and, say, a 13" MacBook display), and right-click menus that look native on top of a UI that is very much not.
It doesn't matter if the backend is native. That is not my interface. The UI is. And, frankly, Electron sucks. It is a terrible user experience everywhere, not just on Mac.
Electron turns an app from being a Mac-Assed App into Just Another Electron App. I have many examples of MAAs that I could share, including the current 1Password. I can not think of any Electron app that makes me go "Wow - that Just Works, and Just Works exactly as I expect it to". (Obsidian might just squeeze in, but I would give my back teeth for a fully native version.) I can, however, point at many that fail to render parts of the UI, or have scrolling issues, or occasionally fail to load anything but a blank screen because who-knows-why?
And it seems that this is happening with 1Password. In the name of Developer convenience and efficiency the UI is moving to Electron. It is going to make it easier to deliver updates across all the supported platforms in good time with less effort.
That's great for AgileBits. Not so great for me.
One of the reasons given for this change is support for older versions of MacOS. I seem to recall that we have been here before, possibly with the transition from v5 to v6. At that time the older version was kept around for a while to support older versions of MacOS. Yes there are overheads with maintaining those older versions. So set a deadline for updates, give people time to upgrade, and then move on. You just landed another $100,000,000 with the Series B so there is money in the bank to support that.
And in the meantime, get a Mac-native SwiftUI v8 app working. We will wait. We know that it will be worth it.
Otherwise this will be done at the expense of a long-term, very passionate user-base who have supported AgileBits since day one, and helped the business get to a point where it can deliver a fantastic application on multiple platforms.
Another thing that concerns me is that it seems that the browser integration is headed down the 1PasswordX route. I have tried the 1PasswordX extension many times, and it is a horrid experience when compared with the Classic/Mini extension. TouchID fails to trigger. Or it triggers and doesn't work. Or it triggers once and never again and I have to re-type my 1Password password every time I want to Autofill a password. And then it fails to find the right password. Or to give me the option to choose from the alternatives I may have (personal vs work accounts on the same websites, for example).
Forcing me down that path on its own would be enough to have me consider cancelling my subscription. In combination with moving to the Electron UI, a cancellation almost certain.
I am not going to jump into a cancellation yet. My Family sub is valid until early 2022 so I have time to see how this works out.
But while you're working on this, listen to your users. We love 1Password and we want that to continue.
Unfortunately I am expecting some future heartbreak and a move to Keychain in iOS15 and Monterey, even if I lose a whole pile of useful features from 1Password (and there are many that I would miss) because I am not going to deal with the hundreds of daily UI paper cuts that seem to be heading my way.
(Why Keychain? I've taken a look at all the popular alternatives to 1Password over the last few days. They all have similar issues to those being discussed in this thread re non-native UIs and behaviour. When 1Password goes Electron there will not be a Mac-native app that Just Works for me, so Keychain it may be.)
Thanks for reading this far. I hope it was useful.
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I hate Electron, or more precisely badly written apps in Electron. That being said, I installed the beta + beta ext. on every browser and :
- I like the look of it (I always hated the small search...)
- It seems to work
- the lag when using the safari ext. is annoying, fix this pronto guys...
- I was already using the v8 on Windows so I'm not surprised.
Now, let's be clear: I understand it's a beta and I'll wait until you decide it's "done". Then I'll decide if I'm a happy customer. Simple. No hate, no angry post here. I'm a customer since the v2 and a journalist pushing 1P for years, and the deal is simple: fuck this up, at this price per year, and I think it will be a nice gift to bitwarden... And I reall
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I think it looks great and works great so far! I don't really care what underlying tool are used as long as it works efficiently.
I know some Electron apps are bad (Microsoft Teams), but it does not mean all Electron apps are bad. They just need to be used effectively. People need to get off their high horses....
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I'm going to hold my hands up and admit that I have not tried the v8 beta app. My password database is too important to risk with betas, but after reading this thread I wanted to add my voice as another long-time and discontented user.
And apologies - this turned out to be longer thank I originally intended. It is because I care. A lot.
1Password was the very first application that I bought for macOS when I bought my first MacBook about 10 years ago. It is the first thing I install when I upgrade, and the first application I recommend to new macOS and iOS users. Acknowledging that what we are talking about here is a first beta release and that things will changer, I suspect that is about to change.
Based on the information shared so far, Electron is just one component. There is the new Rust backend which, although I appreciate and understand the technical implications, means nothing to me when I put my Average End User hat on.
What does affect me is the Electron frontend. I cannot count how many times a day I call on 1Password. If all of those times are going to give me repeated paper cuts because of the Electron Experience then I am not interested, at all.
The issues shared by others in this thread echo my experiences with other Electron apps on Mac. They are what they are - web UIs bounded by the window that contains them, and you end up with components that you cannot see until you make the window large enough (which might not be possible with long lists and, say, a 13" MacBook display), and right-click menus that look native on top of a UI that is very much not.
It doesn't matter if the backend is native. That is not my interface. The UI is. And, frankly, Electron sucks. It is a terrible user experience everywhere, not just on Mac.
Electron turns an app from being a Mac-Assed App into Just Another Electron App. I have many examples of MAAs that I could share, including the current 1Password. I can not think of any Electron app that makes me go "Wow - that Just Works, and Just Works exactly as I expect it to". (Obsidian might just squeeze in, but I would give my back teeth for a fully native version.) I can, however, point at many that fail to render parts of the UI, or have scrolling issues, or occasionally fail to load anything but a blank screen because who-knows-why?
And it seems that this is happening with 1Password. In the name of Developer convenience and efficiency the UI is moving to Electron. It is going to make it easier to deliver updates across all the supported platforms in good time with less effort.
That's great for AgileBits. Not so great for me.
One of the reasons given for this change is support for older versions of MacOS. I seem to recall that we have been here before, possibly with the transition from v5 to v6. At that time the older version was kept around for a while to support older versions of MacOS. Yes there are overheads with maintaining those older versions. So set a deadline for updates, give people time to upgrade, and then move on. You just landed another $100,000,000 with the Series B so there is money in the bank to support that.
And in the meantime, get a Mac-native SwiftUI v8 app working. We will wait. We know that it will be worth it.
Otherwise this will be done at the expense of a long-term, very passionate user-base who have supported AgileBits since day one, and helped the business get to a point where it can deliver a fantastic application on multiple platforms.
Another thing that concerns me is that it seems that the browser integration is headed down the 1PasswordX route. I have tried the 1PasswordX extension many times, and it is a horrid experience when compared with the Classic/Mini extension. TouchID fails to trigger. Or it triggers and doesn't work. Or it triggers once and never again and I have to re-type my 1Password password every time I want to Autofill a password. And then it fails to find the right password. Or to give me the option to choose from the alternatives I may have (personal vs work accounts on the same websites, for example).
Forcing me down that path on its own would be enough to have me consider cancelling my subscription. In combination with moving to the Electron UI, a cancellation almost certain.
I am not going to jump into a cancellation yet. My Family sub is valid until early 2022 so I have time to see how this works out.
But while you're working on this, listen to your users. We love 1Password, and we want that to continue.
Unfortunately I am expecting some future heartbreak and a move to Keychain in iOS15 and Monterey, even if I lose a whole pile of useful features from 1Password (and there are many that I would miss) because I am not going to deal with the hundreds of daily UI paper cuts that seem to be heading my way.
(Why Keychain? I've taken a look at all the popular alternatives to 1Password over the last few days. They all have similar issues to those being discussed in this thread re non-native UIs and behaviour. When 1Password goes Electron there will not be a Mac-native app that Just Works for me, so Keychain it may be.)
Thanks for reading this far. I hope it was useful.
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People are voicing their opinions out. Stop insulting them by insinuating they don't know what they are talking about. You think it looks great, works great, that is your opinion. Share it with the world. No one stops you. But don't go demeaning others by asking them to get off their high horses. If anything, you make it look like you are the one who needs to get off one.
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For what 1Password is charging (which I've so far been happy to pay), they shouldn't be cutting corners or offering less from one version to the next.
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I hate Electron, or more precisely badly written apps in Electron. That being said, I installed the beta + beta ext. on every browser and :
- I like the look of it (I always hated the small search...)
- It seems to work
- the lag when using the safari ext. is annoying, fix this pronto guys...
- I was already using the v8 on Windows so I'm not surprised.
- Where is my auto Apple Watch unlock?
Now, let's be clear: I understand it's a beta and I'll wait until you decide it's "done". Then I'll decide if I'm a happy customer. Simple. No hate, no angry post here. I'm a customer since the v2 and a journalist pushing 1P for years, and the deal is simple: f. this up, at this price per year, and I think it will be a nice gift to bitwarden... And I really don't look forward any migration to this ugly service. That is using Electron too! But, at a price in line with that crappy tech. :P
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@phoenix1386 relax. There weren't any insults.
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For what 1Password is charging (which I've so far been happy to pay), they shouldn't be cutting corners or offering less from one version to the next.
Which part of "early access" and "alpha version" did you not understand?
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@Cafeine - thanks for the feedback! The Safari extension issue is, unfortunately, an issue with Safari 14, one we can't fix. It IS fixed in Safari 15 and if you are the type of person who runs beta versions of OS as well as apps like ours, you will notice the difference immediately. As to the rest, as roustem and other colleagues have said here and elsewhere over the last couple of days, stay tuned. We're working on many of those. Thanks again for the evenhanded tone and the willingness to see how this early access version evolves. :)
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As a software developer that uses a bunch of (electron) apps in parallel for day-to-day work, I'm quite unhappy with the decision that 1Password 8 goes on that path with the electron as well. Most of the comments here are oriented to the 1Password as a single piece of software. To me, it looks like everyone forgets that 1Password should be a side app, that quietly works in the background and not something eating nearly double RAM and GPU.
Try to look at this in a way that for daily work most of us have to use Slack, Figma, VSCode, ... (all electron-based apps). Little by little I'm starting to experience fan speed up, mac getting hotter and sometimes everything slows down. It's not about "that one" app, but about adding the 1Password to the pile.
As I'm quite sure that there is no time/money to entirely rewrite everything back again to work natively, I'm afraid that I'll have to migrate my family plan to something else...just still not sure to what as the main reason for choosing the 1Password was the native macOS app.
Keep in mind that there are still some users that are keeping an eye on native vs non-native apps and that want to run as many native apps as possible to keep the overall machine fluid and happy :)0 -
The Safari extension issue is, unfortunately, an issue with Safari 14, one we can't fix.
The Safari extension of 1P7 works great on Safari 14, so you are using something specific that causes this incompatibility. So, it's basically your decision to leave Safari 14 users behind.
I am immediately upgrading to Monterey, so I will have Safari 15, but still cannot understand your reasoning behind this. Anyway, it's not that important. Just get rid of Electron and make a native app for the Mac. Everything else is secondary.0 -
Just get rid of Electron and make a native app for the Mac. Everything else is secondary.
The app being "native" or not is literally the least important aspect in a piece of security software like a password manager. I said this elsewhere, but people should appreciate 1P's exceptional security architecture (that pretty much blows the competition out of the water), instead of lamenting over fancy looks or the lack thereof.
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The app being "native" or not is literally the least important aspect in a piece of security software like a password manager. I said this elsewhere, but people should appreciate 1P's exceptional security architecture (that pretty much blows the competition out of the water), instead of lamenting on fancy looks or the lack thereof.
I understand what you are saying and I agree that security is a very important aspect. The UI is very important too and with 1P8 we are having a regression, at least on the Mac. Mac users want polished apps that behave like Mac apps. Apps that use native UI controls and features. The backend might be great, I have no doubt about that, but from a user perspective the experience when using the software must be great. I also know that it is still an alpha version, but I am worried that the Mac app will never get to be as integrated with the OS as 1P7 is. It will never have the scrolling mechanism that a native Mac app has. It will look weird. Is that a deal breaker? For me yes.
Maybe for businesses this is not important (and it probably shouldn't be), but for the typical home user that needs a secure vault, the iCloud Keychain provides great security and with Monterey it will also have a nice UI, which of course feels like a Mac app.
There was a time where 1Password and LastPass were the two big names in the industry. Mac users chose 1Password over Last Pass mainly because the latter didn't have a proper Mac app. 1Password on the contrary offered great Mac apps and integrated perfect with the OS. This was the reason I chose 1Password. This is the reason most people chose it (on the Mac). Now Agile Bits is taking this away from us, so I am sorry, despite the very good back-end, I will not be using this bad app.0 -
despite the very good back-end, I will not be using this bad app.
The look and feel is not what makes a password manager a good app. You're setting the wrong priorities. But by all means, if you choose design over function (security, in this case), move on and look for something else that is easier on your eyes. 1P can't please everyone.
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What makes a password manager good is very subjective in many ways. The reason many people use 1Password over alternatives is it has been polished and performant. This may not be important to you, and your opinion is still valid and valuable, but there has been an outpouring of feedback from users that find those things valuable.
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Maybe for businesses this is not important (and it probably shouldn't be),
No, we need a good UI and slim memory usage as well. Most of my fleet is at 8GB of RAM and with pandemic spending limits, plus the global silicon shortage, it's reaaaaly hard to get upgrades. With every tool moving to Electron, I've never had to deal with so many performance issues. It's a damn mess. And business users are the dumbest of the bunch because one teensy thing goes wrong or changes, and suddenly the computer is an alien device from Omicron Persei 8 that requires IT intervention.
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With macOS 12's Keychain and password improvements (including support for 2FA) it's finally reached a "good enough" state. It seems like an even more important time to maintain an alternative to Keychain that has a clear value proposition, not dilute and diminish the experience as 1P8 does.
I work in software. I get the attraction and the efficiencies of switching to a single codebase and it's not hard to rationalize a switch to Electron. But building native apps used to be part of the cost of doing business on the Mac and it's sad Agilebits has decided it's no longer worth the investment.
I'm running the macOS 12 beta so I'm going to give Keychain a shot to see how well it works. Now that there are ways to use iCloud passwords on Windows (via the Chrome extension) it seems possible that 1Password may rebuild its way into irrelevance for most people.
(PS. History has proven that very few good things have come from the statement "we tossed out everything and started over from scratch.")
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I understand their desire to go cross-platform. While disappointing, it is cheaper to develop and gives them a wider reach. What I don't understand is their willingness to compromise in the UX experience. They've heard it from every direction from Mac users, but I think it's something that would benefit all users.
Electron has a lot of rough edges, particularly related to things like perceived speed, window drawing, scrolling, animation, and fonts. If they are going to use Electron, they need to address those things so even if it's not the Mac-native feeling app we want, at least it doesn't feel gross to use. Otherwise, why not just LastPass?
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What makes a password manager good is very subjective in many ways.
It's objectively not, though. I can understand people want nice looking apps that are easy to use, but the point of a password manager is not to please your eyes. Its point is security. The best looking "native app" password manager doesn't help you when the underlying security is crap.
With that said, the new version doesn't look ugly. People are just obsessed with the fact that "it has to be a native app", which in itself is completely irrelevant, as long as 1P does the same job as before.
Some people - and that becomes apparent here once more - live and breathe outrage. In this case, outrage over something as extremely insignificant as 1Ps change from native to Electron.
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Just because you insist something is objective doesn't make it the case and the burden of proof is on you to support your silly assertion. Just because a car propels forward doesn't make it a good car.
I think a lot of the people complaining that it doesn't feel native are mostly complaining that it feels slow and sluggish with the things I mentioned.
Lastly, I won't bite on your bizarre quip about "outrage" as it seems politically charged and inappropriate for this discussion.
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@cryptochrome "if you choose design over function (security, in this case), move on and look for something else that is easier on your eyes." Ah yes, yes...security.
Skype, Slack, other Electron-based apps can be easily backdoored
Adventures in Hacking Electron Apps
Security experts have discovered a vulnerability in the Electron software framework that has been used for building a large number of popular desktop applications.
Critical Flaw Hits Popular Windows Apps Built With Electron JS Framework0 -
The Safari extension issue is, unfortunately, an issue with Safari 14, one we can't fix.
A company I recently worked for (with 50,000-100,000 employees) is still not allowing their employees to install macOS Big Sur (they run Catalina).
It will take a while for them to use Safari 15. You might be loosing some customers there...
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