Electron
Comments
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@cryptochrome I was referring to the decision to use Electron as opposed to keeping the app native. Also, it's not an either-or choice between design and security. 1Password 7 was a secure product with good design. That's what I love about it!
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I would really appreciate if you could refrain from getting into insult territory and not call my assertions "silly". You may not agree with my stance, but that shouldn't be a reason to start acting like a 6 year old. I hope we can agree at least on that.
I think a lot of the people complaining that it doesn't feel native are mostly complaining that it feels slow and sluggish with the things I mentioned.
Which - again - is to be expected from an early alpha version. If you expect polished, optimized code, wait for the final release and don't use alphas. It's completely unreasonable and way over the top to complain about that at this stage.
Lastly, I won't bite on your bizarre quip about "outrage" as it seems politically charged and inappropriate for this discussion.
So the word "outrage" is "politically charged"? Are you US American, by chance? No offense, just wondering. In the world I live in, nothing about this word is politically charged. It describes the state of mind of people that are upset over something, to the point where they are no longer reasonable and make insults (which happened, in some of these threads).
I think people here need to take a step back and breathe.
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Ah yes, yes...security.
There is a lot more to 1P than an Electron frontend. The underlying security is the best in the business (read this) and Electron won't change that. Most of what's going on under the hood of v8 is written in Rust. Electron just brings it to the surface.
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It isn't an insult to call a silly assertion "silly," it simply means that it is not credible and no evidence has been put forth to support it. Throwing around the term "outraged" without any semblance of support is reckless and only making these discussions seem more fueled. For you to read something in plain text and assume you know the emotional state or intent of the commenter is irresponsible. Also, I am not an American citizen and feel your asking is inappropriate and irrelevant to this discussion.
As far as the feedback about the level of polish on the app's UX, I haven't seen anybody here assert they believe this is the final product. They are simply pointing out things they do not like with the hope that Agilebits will address them. Not expressing that feedback defeats the whole purpose of public alphas.
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@ synacsyn
Ask me how I know you work for Agilebits.
I know that you are frustrated. But we at Agilebits have clearly marked our identities when posting on Forums and Reddit. We are not using sockpuppet accounts or anything of the kind. Please do not accuse us - or in this case, other 1Password customers - of astroturfing here. This is uncool. More importantly, it is false. It's also hurtful to the open discussion we try to encourage in this space.
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@cryptochrome -- local Bill Nye the security expert guy. You have such a big talk on how security matters more than the looks (arguably AgileBits offred both before 1P8). But you're basically relying on a proprietary password manager with all of your accounts, including those the leakage of which can literally completely ruin your life. You're relying on a company that pinky promises to keep your data safe. Also, decision to use Electron framework instead of native solutions is a huge red flag. If you were to really care about security, you'd be using either pass (cli), KeePass, or Bitwarden (self-hosted since there is no way of proving they're not tempering with you data server side). All of those is free software -- open source, no trust in 3rd party, reliable, and you can make it as secure as you possibly can. But you will not use those truly secure solutions, instead you will use 1P because you choose convenience over security.
So let's get over with your "looks over functionality" argument because it's so full of $h!t.
How can you actually be mad at people not enjoying running web apps? Mac users are in constant hunt for quality Mac software because they're tired of running Windows apps on MacOS. The app is complete garbage, but hey tHe FeAtuREs!
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With all due respect, you haven't unequivocally proven that Agilebits employees aren't astroturfing here. I agree with you that the accusations may not be fair or are "uncool," but you can't necessarily prove they are "false." I'll refrain from this, but ask that you treat feedback from your users equitably, as I have seen some users here be censored when providing critical and reasonable feedback.
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@privateuser - I'm sorry to hear you say this. We care very much about security here, and in fact our security model is based explicitly off not asking you to simply accept a pinky-swear that we're secure. We don't want you to have to trust us. We want to architect a solution that means you won't have to. That can still be done with cloud sync.
The entire architecture of 1Password - from AES-256, end-to-end encryption, on to the Electron hardening in 1Password 8 - is intended to provide security without sacrificing privacy.
We do serious security audits as well:
https://support.1password.com/security-assessments/
since there is no way of proving they're not tempering with you data server side
Respectfully, there's no way for us to do this, because the model we've established doesn't allow it. We never have your account password or Secret Key, so we can't do the calculations necessary to decrypt your data. How could we? It's just not mathematically doable.
We also collect minimal information on our customers, as detailed here:
https://support.1password.com/1password-privacy/
Whatever your criticisms of our approach, I hope you'll choose to engage with what we're actually doing. It's hard for us to respond to criticisms of things that are neither our practice nor intent.
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As much as I don't care for the change to Electron, I absolutely trust that the AgileBits folks are trying their best to build secure software. I have my doubts, about how secure electron can be made, but that is different than them not caring or doing something malicious.
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With all due respect, you haven't unequivocally proven that Agilebits employees aren't astroturfing here.
You can't be serious. We are taking a lot of criticism here right now, but that doesn't entitle you to make spurious accusations. Nor does it require that I prove that any customer who disagrees with you is genuine. There is no astroturfing here going on - full stop. Thank you for agreeing not to repeat it. We take the community here seriously.
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You're right. I shouldn't be able to make spurious accusations and I will respect your request. I was merely pointing out that you have no more evidence to disprove the comment with complete confidence. I understand this is a sensitive issue for Agilebits and will refrain from any further commentary as I know it does not help the situation. Thank you.
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Not sure if posted this before but this presentation shows how seriously we take the security and the lengths we went to make 1Password 8 more secure. It is a bit technical in nature and goes into quite a few details:
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What is 1Password Helper (GPU)? Seems to be taking up a lot of memory.
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Yeah, I gotta say, until Macs ship with Apple Silicon and more than 16 GB of RAM, I'm concerned about the swelling memory footprint of 1Password.
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As subscriber of family plan of 1password if they move to to Electron, I can say it's a quick good bye.
I refuse to pay for something that runs on Electron...
btw.. since they need to keep iOS codebase why not make it using Catalyst for instance, it would be faster and better than Electron apps (and native!)
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Comparison of 1Password 7 and 1Password 8 memory usage:
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@khaosspawn The GPU Helper is responsible for GPU acceleration. We are looking at what can be done there to make it smaller or may get rid of it completely.
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Thanks @roustem . Having gone through a lot of this thread, I'll hold off till the software is at a testable state to keep testing.
Too many basic things don't work at the moment (I will comment in other threads for specific feedback). Once they do - and no doubt they soon will - I'll check it out again.
I use 1P(7) on ios, mac, windows, CLI. It's been working really well so far - and I'm cautious about what the future holds - given how much vital information I store in 1P.
As @neilio mentioned earlier - "throwing everything out and starting again" is a really worrying statement to see. Please be careful!
On April 1st, 2020 we officially put our existing 1Password apps into maintenance mode, opened up our source code editors, and clicked File > New Project… on five new 1Password apps.
The 1Password Core Era
1Password 8 has been an incredibly ambitious project for a number of reasons. Beyond “simply” recreating an entire 1Password client app backend in a shared library, we had other requirements:
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I get the comments about being off. But I will attempt to give some concrete items I. Or cord.
For the How can they (agielbits) make it better?
To be honest electron isn’t inherently bad to me, not particularly my cup of tea. Due to the reasons I state below. It comes as the effects of how the app operates compared to how other apps operate that I consider first class citizens on the Mac.
examples:
TextMate, air buddy, better touch tool, Alfred.
Apps I am more then willing to pay for and have that user experience I expect.
Areas that are jarring:
Windowing - windows are bound to the main window. Including the search. Which is oddly limiting
Mini - context including apps. This was a great addition is now seemingly gone. The small easily pop up window that I could search, pin items without full interaction with the app, add new items. The workflow seems at odds of what you tend to be doing. Before it was help me get there. Now it’s more what item am I looking for when I try and navigate breaks the train of thought..
Local vaults - well,in this case choice? And people are paying. Tell the user hey this is vector of attack and relies on you (the end user) to trust where you save it.and isn’t that true of my home folder or cloud? You can encourage but not having it all is a bummer and loss of control. A very Mac centric perspective this is my computer I will decide where I keep stuff.
The security thing is interesting in the YouTube video. It seemed like analogous to turning off valves in your house for water. The only concern would be it’s implicit that you have tighten areas you don’t want to leak. As to oppose to being explicit and saying these are the only things I want you to do and nothing else. That maybe oversimplification, but just my impression.
Hopefully this is helpful.
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Lots of comments on memory usage in this thread. I haven't had a chance to install/use the v8 early access yet, but I thought I'd share my 1P7 memory usage, as it's quite a bit higher than what some people are posting. This has the side-benefit of memorializing my 1PW v7 mem usage as of today so that I can compare future days and 1PW v8 when I upgrade.
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I’d also like to register my concern over switching to Electron for the Mac app. I’ve been a customer since v2 and the most important feature to me has always been that 1Password is a well made, truly native app in the Apple ecosystem.
Even if performance issues with Electron turn out to be a complete non-issue, there are still inherent limitations with the Electron user experience that cannot be worked around. These have already been mentioned by others, such as menus being unable to go beyond the boundaries of windows, not working correctly with macOS work spaces, navigation discrepancies and many other small annoyances. I cannot see any amount of skill or dedication addressing these in a satisfactory way using Electron.
Personally I’d love to see the team dust off the SwiftUI front end. I would much rather wait a good long while for a SwiftUI version than move to the non-native Electron version in a month or two. I can certainly see how it’s easier on the development team to consolidate code bases and drop support for v7, but in the process the app is in danger of losing one of its most compelling features, compared to other offerings that often have lower price points.
For now I’ll stay on v7 which I’m really very happy with, and hope for a native front end version at some point down the line.
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Hi,
since I am not going to stay with 1Password after version 7, for what it's worth, I'd still like to give you some feedback about the reason, with the hope that the decision might be reconsidered. I am not talking here about the move to the subscription-only model, which is another reason but would be off-topic.
As a long time Mac user and developer (I started writing MacOS software with THINK Pascal in 1990), I always paid the utmost respect to the exemplarily well defined Apple Human Guidelines, which, unfortunately, in recent years, fewer and fewer people, including at Apple, read. At the same time, as user, I always demanded from programs adherence to it.
As embedded programmer I greatly dislike highly inefficient cross-platform frameworks and, in general, unnecessary abstractions over the system APIs. The memory consumption figures exhibited by such software is simply a disgrace to software development.
I understand that contraptions like Electron are the dream of some managers come true. From a user's perspective, an Electron-based program is just an uninvited foreign body on his own computer.
SwiftUI and its limitations were mentioned before in this thread. The choice however is not only between SwitftUI and Electron. A good macOS application can be written the traditional way using Xcode and Interface Builder. It requires effort, but, like with every good product, there are people who care willing to pay for it.
In the end, as a paying customer, I simply exercise my freedom of choice by refusing to finance non-native software in an attempt to keep the Mac platform clean.
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Thanks to the developers for their efforts in the new version, and for staying in here, under fire, and answering questions. I hope it hasn't been too discouraging to get all the feedback. The discussion has been passionate because people care about such a beloved app.
There are lots of opinions in here from longtime users, so I wanted to chime in as someone who (maybe?) is reflective of newer and potential target customers of the app. I'm certainly not new to the Mac (about 10 years with it), but I was a longtime Windows user and vividly remember dipping my toes into the Mac, and what brought me over. It wasn't bullet point features in apps, but was the "delight" of using certain apps, one of which was 1Password. I had eyed it with envy for a while, and was sold once I tried it.
It was pleasurable to use. Being new to the Mac, I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but now, looking back, I realize it was the "Mac-ness" of the app that drew me to it. I can't imagine that I'm the only person for whom that delight of using it was the big attraction. That was kind of what 1Password was all about, for me at least.
99% of my use case is filling passwords and looking up passwords. All the various features being added over time are nice, but that feel is what set 1Password apart. I do get the sense from reading the developers' comments, that they have different priorities (ability to roll out new features taking priority over "delight" for example), but that's just a guess from the outside looking in.
I've only been using the Early Access version today, and I hope my opinion shifts over time, but if I had to describe it, I'd say — it is fine. (The high memory usage is another issue). That's really it. That intangible magic, which reached out instantly in the past, is gone. It's just a tool. I couldn't even describe exactly why the magic is gone, other than to say things just feel . . . off.
I'm sure the app will do fine, but I worry that losing that feel of delight will make 1Password lose the one big differentiator it had compared with competing apps.
Just one person's opinion, and it isn't intended to belittle the work being done.
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I was thinking for a couple of days how to react to the 1Password 8 being an Electron app but @1ps_lbs said it more precisely than I would.
I used to buy standalone 1P upgrades then switched to subscription paid by my employer. I am soon to move to other job so I had been thinking about the 1Password Family subscription. Not anymore. No way in hell I am paying for Electron app. If you rethink you approach in the future so might I.
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Thanks to the developers for their efforts in the new version, and for staying in here, under fire, and answering questions. I hope it hasn't been too discouraging to get all the feedback. The discussion has been passionate because people care about such a beloved app.
There are lots of opinions in here from longtime users, so I wanted to chime in as someone who (maybe?) is reflective of newer and potential target customers of the app. I'm certainly not new to the Mac (about 10 years with it), but I was a longtime Windows user and vividly remember dipping my toes into the Mac, and what brought me over. It wasn't bullet point features in apps, but was the "delight" of using certain apps, one of which was 1Password. I had eyed it with envy for a while, and was sold once I tried it.
It was pleasurable to use. Being new to the Mac, I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but now, looking back, I realize it was the "Mac-ness" of the app that drew me to it. I can't imagine that I'm the only person for whom that delight of using it was the big attraction. That was kind of what 1Password was all about, for me at least.
99% of my use case is filling passwords and looking up passwords. All the various features being added over time are nice, but that feel is what set 1Password apart. I do get the sense from reading the developers' comments, that they have different priorities (ability to roll out new features taking priority over "delight" for example), but that's just a guess from the outside looking in.
I've only been using the Early Access version today, and I hope my opinion shifts over time, but if I had to describe it, I'd say — it is fine. That's really it. That intangible magic, which reached out instantly in the past, is gone. It's just a tool. (The high memory usage is another issue). I couldn't even describe exactly why the magic is gone, other than to say things just feel . . . off.
I'm sure the app will do fine, but I worry that losing that feel of delight will make 1Password lose the one big differentiator it had compared with competing apps.
Just one person's opinion, and it isn't intended to belittle the work being done.
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Thanks to the developers for their efforts in the new version, and for staying in here, under fire, and answering questions. I hope it hasn't been too discouraging to get all the feedback. The discussion has been passionate because people care about such a beloved app.
There are lots of opinions in here from longtime users, so I wanted to chime in as someone who (maybe?) is reflective of newer and potential target customers of the app. I'm certainly not new to the Mac (about 10 years with it), but I was a longtime Windows user and vividly remember dipping my toes into the Mac, and what brought me over. It wasn't bullet point features in apps, but was the "delight" of using certain apps, one of which was 1Password. I had eyed it with envy for a while, and was sold once I tried it.
It was pleasurable to use. Being new to the Mac, I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but now, looking back, I realize it was the "Mac-ness" of the app that drew me to it. I can't imagine that I'm the only person for whom that delight of using it was the big attraction. That was kind of what 1Password was all about, for me at least.
99% of my use case is filling passwords and looking up passwords. All the various features being added over time are nice, but that feel is what set 1Password apart. I do get the sense from reading the developers' comments, that they have different priorities (ability to roll out new features taking priority over "delight" for example), but that's just a guess from the outside looking in.
I've only been using the Early Access version today, and I hope my opinion shifts over time, but if I had to describe it, I'd say — it is fine. That's really it. That intangible magic, which reached out instantly in the past, is gone. It's just a tool. (The high memory usage is another issue). I couldn't even describe exactly why the magic is gone, other than to say things just feel . . . off.
I'm sure the app will do fine, but I worry that losing that feel of delight will make 1Password lose the one big differentiator it had compared with competing apps.
Just one person's opinion, and it isn't intended to belittle the work being done.
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Having used this beta since the announcement, this doesn't look or feel like native Mac software, and it's more of a resource hog than in the past. The UI elements and interactions aren't native, the scrolling is choppy, among other smaller things (which other people have posted about). Having been a (up until now) happy 1Password customer since 2012, "sad" is the only way to describe how I felt seeing all of this go down. Yeah, it's probably still secure and easier for them to develop going forward, but I was a happy customer because it was a premium Mac application, and that's no longer the case. Thankfully iCloud Keychain has come far enough that I'd feel comfortable moving to that should this go through. I hope AgileBits reconsiders SwiftUI! 🙏🏼
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Electron applications will unfortunately never feel like they belong. There are tons of little details Apple has put a lot of time and effort into that make the Mac experience as great as it is. A lot of this comes for free when using Interface Builder or SwiftUI. A lot of it can't be replicated with Electron.
After using 1Password 8 here are some of my first impressions:
- Scrolling feels lifeless. It's like scrolling a web page. No elastic scrolling and it doesn't look and feel anyway near as smooth.
- Watchtower looks like a web page in a web view, which it basically is. I much prefer the 1Password 7 implementation where its all shown in a list with the ability to filter.
- Resizing text with cmd + and cmd - just isn't the way it should work in a Mac application except for web content in a browser. What's worse is that the UI elements are also resized. UI elements should respect the scaling settings.
- The settings window is modal and stuck inside the application window. It also has an X on the top right. Seriously? It can't even be moved. This is just the kind of crap that make Electron apps bad.
- Pull down menus can't extend past the boundaries of the application window. This is against the way they should work on a Mac.
- The amount of settings is very limited, but since this is a beta I'm going to assume that's a temporary issue.
- Search doesn't filter the list anymore. It suggests items them goes to them. Filtering is now an extra step.
- No ability to set keyboard shortcuts.
My overall impression is that yes it works, but it feels totally out of place on a Mac, while all the other 1Password versions I have used for the past 14 years have been some of the best Mac application experiences available. It feels like a typical electron application. It even looks like an electron application. I don't like it at all. I wish you would change your mind and scrap this Electron disaster. I don't think you will, but I hope 1Password 9 will go back to being a great application again.
It's sad to see so many apps switching to web based technologies lately, but to see an application made by developers who really seemed passionate about the Mac experience and to make a great application to contribute and elevate it move to Electron is just heartbreaking.
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