1Password 8 - Non-native feel

2

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  • VS Code is a great example of a solid Electron app... but it is an app you work in, 1Password is a utility that needs to integrate into daily usage, a slight change in native operations is just jarring and disrupts the flow

    Saying 1PW8 on Linux is great is a terrible discussion in this when talking Native, Linux has rarely had a consistent native feel and that makes Electron apps very suitable for Linux

    1PW8 for Windows is also not a good example as 1PW7 for Windows felt like it was just a ported version of the Mac version using the same framework Apple used with iTunes

    1PW7 "works" in Windows, but as someone that rolled out it for businesses it was a horrible kludge to use in comparison to the native integrations and "feel" that a Mac experienced with 1PW7

    As many of the ATP hosts made clear... use AppKit... Electron is a mediocre experience and moves the burden from the devs to the paying customers

  • user12345user12345 Junior Member

    @tiltowaitt

    I’m sorry, but in no way does VS Code feel like a native app. It’s not even close.

    Absolutely agree. It may be one of the better Electron implementations but like all Electron apps it does not feel like a native app.
    Making an Electron app feel native on macOS is impossible. The standard for app quality on a mac is far beyond what is possible to accomplish with Electron.

    @KirkMcPike

    This app feels like a Linux or Windows app. That is never a compliment.

    Yes. This is very much true, and the poor experience on these platforms is why I am a Mac user.

    @rob

    For how long after the 1Password 8 release will 1Password 7 be supported with security updates? Because I can't see myself going to 1Password 8.

  • @user12345 well put. It is the least-bad app, but no cross-platform UI framework is ever equal to a native app, let alone superior. Windows is a mishmash of UI's, and Linux GUI is, well, just bad. Part of the reason we use a mac is because of the consistent UX. Slack is a constant irritant (not to mention a massive resource hog), and I dropped signal after their own downgrade to electron.

    And I'll second that comment on 1P7 security and OS compatibility updates. We need to know an end-date so we can plan ahead. Likewise, we absolutely need a way to prevent the upgrade from happening automatically.

  • dancodanco Senior Member Community Moderator

    Are any upgrades automatic? I am always asked if I want to upgrade. But perhaps there is an option to upgrade automatically, and I have it turned off.

    No-one can say for how long 1PW7 will be compatible with OS upgrades except that it does work with Monterey. which means it is OK for at least a year. But there's no knowing about the version after Monterey.

    Remember that AgileBits did try to make a native version of the front-end for 1PW8 as well as the Electron version. But the choice they made turned out not to be viable in the short term. They might still go back and try again. The biggest issue for those who dislike Electron is that the Mac enthusiasts on the AgileBits team seem to find the Electron version satisfactory in general (though with bugs and features missing, as one can expect in a beta).

  • robrob Agile Customer Care

    Team Member

    For how long after the 1Password 8 release will 1Password 7 be supported with security updates?

    @user12345 I don't think we've set any specific date, but we still support 1Password 6, if that's any indication. We haven't needed to release any security updates for 1Password 6 since 1Password 7 was released, but it still works and syncs with 1Password.com.

    Are any upgrades automatic? I am always asked if I want to upgrade. But perhaps there is an option to upgrade automatically, and I have it turned off.

    @danco The upgrade from version 7 to version 8 is not automatic. Once you're on version 8, you can choose whether or not to install updates automatically.

    No-one can say for how long 1PW7 will be compatible with OS upgrades except that it does work with Monterey. which means it is OK for at least a year. But there's no knowing about the version after Monterey.

    Yep. There's honestly no way for us to know at this point. If it's simple to support Monterey + 1 in version 7, we'll probably do it. If it requires a ton of work, we likely won't.

  • roustemroustem AgileBits Founder

    Team Member
    edited August 20

    Are any upgrades automatic? I am always asked if I want to upgrade. But perhaps there is an option to upgrade automatically, and I have it turned off.

    The major upgrades are never automatic. Just like we did in the past, upgrading from version 7 to version 8 would requite an explicit action.

    Also, there are still updates to version 7 that will be coming.

  • Once you're on version 8, you can choose whether or not to install updates automatically.

    Does that work for the Nightly channel?

    I have this option enabled, but have to manually install updated so far.

  • The non-native feel is one thing, but the memory usage of the 1Password 8 is from a different planet. The app feels slow (M1 Macbook Air). It leaks memory like crazy:

    Not sure if it is due to being beta, but the app feels like a major downgrade in features, reliability, look & feel, and pretty much everything.

    I hope it is not too late to stop this update and return back to the drawing boards.

  • rwakefordrwakeford Member

    +sure if it is due to being beta, but the app feels like a major downgrade in features, reliability, look & feel, and pretty much everything.
    I remember when they completely changed Skype and there was a justifiable uproar as it was so completely different but it's now (for me at least) a great application. I installed 1Password 8 and went straight back to 7 as it just didn't "feel" right . However I decided to try again and I've re-installed 8 and the nightly updates are making a difference and it's smoothing out quickly and I feel it will end up being a polished product.

  • dppeakdppeak
    edited August 23

    My big question is what ever happened to the native Mac Password Auto-Fill support your team had demonstrated? This is my biggest issue with the latest moves. Is that initiative dead now that you are moving to an Electron (non-native) app? I have some passwords that are in my system keychain and will remain that way so the 1Password auto fill just conflicts with the native menu. I have to disable 1Password's menu, so I can not use your new Safari extension. I have looked at a great app called Minimalist that imports 1Password, offers native UI, and native Password AutoFill support and if you won't be supporting Apple's AutoFill extension, then I will be moving to that app and saying goodbye to 1Password after 15+ years of using it. Contrary to what your support team says, support for Apple's Password AutoFill is possible (you do it on iOS).

  • @roustem Thanks. So we have at least a year before we have to move. That gives us time to see how bad the end-state of the electron app is, and make a decision on moving to another product.

  • robrob Agile Customer Care

    Team Member

    Does that work for the Nightly channel?

    I have this option enabled, but have to manually install updated so far.

    @XIII it should be working for nightlies. When it does, you'll see a prompt that says 1Password will update the next time it's restarted, with an option to restart now. If that's not happening, we might want to collect some logs to see what's going on. Let me know.

    It leaks memory like crazy

    @Mirek Petricek thanks for pointing that out. One of my teammates is looking into a memory leak today, so hopefully we'll have that patched up soon.

    I've re-installed 8 and the nightly updates are making a difference and it's smoothing out quickly and I feel it will end up being a polished product.

    @rwakeford thanks for saying so! We aren't going to be happy with a less-than-polished product either.

    My big question is what ever happened to the native Mac Password Auto-Fill support your team had demonstrated?

    @dppeak we spent a bit of effort on that but we weren't able to get it where we wanted to in Big Sur. With Monterey, we're hoping to re-evaluate. There's nothing related to Electron in the way, though. This would be implemented in Swift and we have a good chunk of Swift in 1Password 8 already.

    ref: dev/core/core#6444

  • I completely understand that using something like Electron and a common back-end written in Rust makes it easier to develop and maintain a desktop app for Windows, macOS and Linux. And I also understand that even for us users there is an indirect benefit because you will be able to iterate faster and deliver new stuff more often.

    But we have a price to pay: Such an app very likely can only be an "ok" citizen in any of the supported OSes, but will never be able to offer the best possible UX on any of them. 1PW8 clearly shows that at the moment. UX is ok, but it feels like less a native macOS app than 1PW7. I'm confident that it will be good enough once it has sufficiently matured to be released, but I doubt that it will be really great on any platform.

    So, please prove me wrong ;-)

  • It should be working for nightlies. When it does, you'll see a prompt that says 1Password will update the next time it's restarted, with an option to restart now. If that's not happening, we might want to collect some logs to see what's going on. Let me know.

    It did indeed work like that yesterday (have not turned on my Mac today).

  • I think one of the strongest points of 1Password is and was the native app feel and the design. Going to electron is maybe a business decision but not a users centric decision. Don’t forget a user don’t botter when you will release a new “feature” for the app if it will be in September or later. Take the Apple philosophy “it just works”. That means only release when it is ready and works great. Even if that means postpone it till it’s ready. Only the user experience will count and if the app will be supported on the latest releases and is secure. It stands or falls with that. It’s clear you want to release at the same time new iPhones will be released and iOS 15. The choose to go electron because then older versions of MacOS will be supported,… is bullshit! Users clearly understands that when a computer gets older newer software will not be supported anymore because of new technologies. Also the older versions of 1Password 6 or 7 are still available. Why not make the requirements of the new app that it only support recent versions of MacOS? And for how long is SwiftUI already available? Is it not that going the route of Swift you have one cross-platform user interface layer with iOS,iPadOS,MacOS? And is Apple not willing to help since you are one of the top Apps in the AppStore for years now and are praised by them? It sound for me the quickest route to take but not the best decision for user experience.

    I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn't feel right to me.

  • @roustem I refer to your August 20 post - Part of the initial argument as to why you swapped to electron in the first place was because you wanted to ship by September, and that was an important deadline to meet. I understand development often takes longer than anticipated but can you see from a user perspective how frustrating it might be?

    On one hand you're saying 1P8 has built from the ground up to be better for users. You start off trying to do it the right way by using SwiftUI and then because you can't polish it enough to deliver in time for September you make the decision to move it to Electron a technically inferior way of doing it. One that hurts a user experience.

    Given you've now pushed the final release date back so significantly can you please dump Electron, start from where you left off and go back to SwiftUI? Electron is completely a no-go on macOS.

    @rob I refer to your post of AUgust 20 where you say you tried separate apps and WIndows users would tell you it didn't work. Using both platforms with 1P7 since it came out, this is flat out incorrect. Some Windows users may not have liked it, but i know a lot of windows users who did like it and thought it worked incredibly well.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    @gussic

    Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this topic.

    Part of the initial argument as to why you swapped to electron in the first place was because you wanted to ship by September, and that was an important deadline to meet.

    Deadline or not, we made our decisions based on what we believe is best toolset currently available to meet our goals. A deadline was one small factor among many.

    Some Windows users may not have liked it, but i know a lot of windows users who did like it and thought it worked incredibly well.

    Certainly. 1Password 7 for Windows works and is liked by many. That doesn't diminish that 1Password 8 is a huge improvement in a number of areas, including many that were frequent requests from customers. The majority of our Windows users writing in about it agree.

    I hope that helps clarify our stance a little. Either way your voice has been added to a report we have filed requesting alternative front-end tooling.

    Ben

    ref: dev/core/core#9286

  • @Ben

    Thank you for the reply.

    ...best toolset currently available to meet our goals.

    I appreciate that - but this is the exact issue, Electron is not the best toolset to meet your goals if it is to have a great, native feeling macOS experience. I'm right have met your goals in terms of reducing development time, complexity etc, but it just absolutely sucks from an end-user perspective.

    That doesn't diminish that 1Password 8 is a huge improvement in a number of areas, including many that were frequent requests from customers.

    I don't disagree at all - I probably didn't make my point particularly well. Any suggestion that 1P7 didn't work well for Windows users is just patently false, it worked incredibly well. That's not to take anything away from the fact that 1P8 is a huge improvement for Windows users (and it really is) but why does that have to come at the expense of severely hampering the macOS user experience? You've taken a huge step forward with Windows but to do so you've taken about 10 giant sized steps back for macOS users. Can you understand why there are a lot of us who are very angry, and feel let down?

    I do not recall anywhere near as much criticism about the user interface/look/feel of previous macOS clients (not to say there weren't other criticisms obviously).

  • One thing that's been bugging me about 1Password 8. I know the Preferences dialog is not a native window. Would prefer it to be but I get the feeling I am fighting a losing battle over this so i'm over asking for it anymore! :-)

    BUT.... You've stated before that you would prefer each app to feel "at home" on each platform. If so, please move the preferences window "X" or close button to the left hand side on Mac. It drives me insane! Even better, remove it altogether and just put preferences in a native Mac window. (ok, that's the last one, I promise!!!!)

    Neil

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    I do not recall anywhere near as much criticism about the user interface/look/feel of previous macOS clients (not to say there weren't other criticisms obviously).

    This is anecdotal, and much of the discussion is probably lost at this point (I did find one example, here), but when we launched 1Password 7 a lot of people absolutely hated mini. I'd would say the percentage of feedback we got about it was near the same level as the feedback we've had about our use of Electron.

    v6:

    v7.0:

    But we listened to all of the feedback, made improvements where feasible, and now mini is something we're getting a lot of love for. Here's how it looks today:

    I'm sure we didn't make everyone happy, and in the end some folks still preferred the v6 look. Overall it seems to me that we improved the experience. I believe we have done and will continue to do so with v8 as well.

    Ben

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    @rctneil

    I've filed an issue for further investigation on this subject, but it seems to me that even in Apple's own apps that use modals the 'X' is on the right. 🤔

    Ben

  • viswizviswiz
    edited September 13

    +1 for @rctneil 's comment on the 'X' top right window corner. It's really driving me nuts ;) Top left traffic light controls should be the only way to go.

    The following windows have the same problem. So please fix them as well and all other sub windows I haven't found yet:

    • Create a Collection...
    • Manage Accounts...
    • Set Up Another Device...

    By the way. Why is every single word uppercase? 8-)

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    @viswiz

    Thanks for adding your perspective. Our design team is taking another look at where it is appropriate to use modals vs windows. Stoplights are for windows, and an 'X' in the upper right is for modals (which are more analogous to tabs than windows) even in Apple's own apps. Apple doesn't make extensive use of modals, but where they do, the 'X' is top right (as illustrated in the Home.app, seen above).

    Ben

    ref: dev/content/design#2179

  • @Ben yes, Apple doesn't always follow its own design guidelines especially for homekit. But in most cases their preferences dialogs are windows with stop lights like the one of the Finder:

    ... or Terminal:

    1Password should respect this macOS feature / design principle!

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    :+1::)

    Ben

  • user12345user12345 Junior Member

    @rctneil
    Absolutely agree about preferences dialog and the X.
    The elastic scrolling is also a big thing on a Mac. Not just the existence of it, but how it looks and feels too.

    @Ben
    It is true that Apple does have the X to the right in the Home app, but I'm not sure using a first gen Mac Catalyst app and one of their worst efforts as the bar for good software design is the best way to go.

    I think looking at Catalyst apps like Messages, Maps and Music is a better idea, since they are more recent and modern.

  • I was just coming back on here to comment that, the Home app is Apple's first attempt at a Catalyst app and the X at the top right most likely came over from iOS. The Home app is a terrible example of a good Mac citizen to be honest. If I were a Mac dev, I would not be taking design inspiration from that app whatsoever.

    I still maintain that the X should be at the top left on Mac platforms and even better, be a proper Mac Preferences window with icon tabs across the top and native stoplight controls top left.

  • LextarLextar Junior Member

    Every single time I try to close 1Password's preferences, I first start to move the mouse to the left and then remember that the "X" is on the right side of the dialog.

    PLEASE, use the default macOS close button on the left side as every other native macOS does. No, the Home app is not a good example of a native macOS app...

    Have a look at the macOS Human Interface Guidelines at https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/macos/app-architecture/preferences/

    Preferences Windows
    A preferences window is a modeless dialog that’s used to adjust an app’s preferences. Typically, a preferences window contains a toolbar that includes buttons for switching between groups of related settings, which are displayed in a view beneath the toolbar. These groupings are known as preference panes.

    The HIG also includes a (slightly outdated) screenshot of a typical macOS preferences window.

  • BenBen AWS Team

    Team Member

    Thanks, @Lextar. I've added your voice to the ticket we're tracking this feedback on.

    Ben

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