1Password 8 - Non-native feel
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@mia - if it wasn't clear, I'm an employee here as well. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't accidentally confusing or appearing to deceive anyone. The orange post header banners are the main "tell" for who is staff and who is community, and you can also click our profiles to verify the 1Password logo on it if you like.
I've heard the negative comments about Electron and the arguments against it just doesn't seem that compelling to me. The app runs fast.... Very fast.
Yep, and it's only going to get faster, and smoother, over time. Most people have their "bright lines" of what something they're willing to spend money on must have or can't have, and those will vary with individuals' tastes. We're aware we won't please everyone; that's why there are other offerings. What I will confess to not understanding is a perspective that places the requirement of specific local app UI toolkit seemingly above all other considerations, but that's the great thing: everyone gets to choose.
Glad you like Psst! sharing. It's a long-awaited feature that took a significant amount of care to make sure it was being done correctly and securely. Regarding other "3rd party-dependent" features, your point is well-taken, and we do develop features that are within our core wheelhouse when we can. Unfortunately, while we've grown substantially in the last couple of years, we're still nowhere near the size of Apple, meaning we don't already run our own email servers and infrastructure -- nor could we spin such a thing up quickly or easily. It would be great if we could, and who knows, someday we might have the kind of capacity to take on a large project like that quickly!
But even if we did, one of the things that's kept us at the forefront of the password management space over the years is a continual re-dedication to remembering to focus on the things that best suit our core offering (usable privacy and security), as well as our current resources. As I'm sure you can imagine, we've gotten tons of requests for all sorts of things over the years, and I place a lot of our success on us knowing how to choose the right ones for the right moment. Some suggestions are simply too big and not attainable at the moment they're offered. Some don't fit well with what we're trying to offer overall. Others are great and get adopted. And there are a myriad of other variations and reasons. We had our masked email feature well under development when Apple debuted their own offering, which maybe wasn't the ideal timing for us, but Apple don't share their roadmaps with us and there wasn't much we could (or can) do about the timing of Apple's feature releases. We love Apple's implementation, and for those who want to stick solely within the Apple ecosystem, it can be a great addition. But, in much the same way that 1Password itself works across browsers and platforms in a way that iCloud keychain does not, partnering with a great email provider like Fastmail means users can now enjoy the masked email feature wherever their digital life takes them.
Either way, both your passion and your comments are always appreciated, and I hope you'll stick around and continue to tell us what you think. :) :+1:
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but my way to deal with that is to find alternatives by developers who care about the Mac experience enough to use the native UI options available.
I know of no password managers that offer anything like 1Password does that still use native UI frameworks. Nobody that does is cross platform. Companies have the choice of developing only for a small niche segment of the market (Mac fanatics) or leaving native UIs behind and developing for everyone. If you find someone who has managed to do both, let me know.
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@Lars Ya I knew you were with AG. I know your staff fairly well at this point, lol. :-)
I figured the AB's integration w/ FastMail was well under way before Apple's implementation. One of the problems with FastMail (and other providers!) is that forums, banks, big stores, etc tend to block due to spam abuse :(0 -
@mia - you've seen that with Fastmail specifically? I have seen it with some of the larger free providers that allow quick and easy account creation and hence the possibility of abuse, but I haven't heard of it with regard to Fastmail -- and (full confession) I've had a Fastmail account that dates back to even before my first purchase of 1Password in 2007! One of the differences with Fastmail (at least for the last several years) is that there is no "free" option -- if you're using a
@fastmail.com(or the older-school@fastmail.fm) address, you are paying at least something for it, and that eliminates nearly all spam: if spammers have to pay, they don't bother. So I've not experienced those issues with my own Fastmail account. You have?0 -
@Lars full disclosure, no. I haven't used fastmail, but I've used at least 7 others and even ones that aren't abused for spam (e.g. Spamgourmet) get blacklisted because they adopt lists compiled by companies who look for these kinds of services. I would be shocked if they didn't include Fastmail simply because it is disposable email whether it's paid for or not. The companies who compile these lists don't seem to segregate between the two.
Then again, I have over 500 logins (yes ~590+) so I've signed up on a LOT of places and have been a good litmus test for many sites.
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I haven't used fastmail
We're pretty far off topic here. Let's reel this thread back to the topic at hand. If there is a problem with the Masked Email feature, please feel free to start a separate thread on that. Thanks!
Ben
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What I will confess to not understanding is a perspective that places the requirement of specific local app UI toolkit seemingly above all other considerations, but that's the great thing: everyone gets to choose.
The reasoning for this is pretty simple - it's a quick and simple litmus test for how the app will feel when you use it. If it uses native UI (even with custom widgets), it's going to feel like an app that belongs on the platform. If it uses Electron, it's going to feel 'wrong'.
The worst Electron apps feel like a web page pretending to be an app - because that's what they are. Generally using Electron usually means that the app is largely the same on every platform - so it tends to feel 'wrong' everywhere, or development tends to favour a platform for feel. Additionally, by having to implement their own widget set, each app that does it has unique quirks - and the widgets that normally get wide reuse like text boxes, checkboxes or on/off switch components never match the platform's expectations.
For 1Password 8 it's not as bad as the web page in a window feel, but it's not a Mac or Windows app. It has some Mac and Windows specific features, but it is a cross-platform app with a UI design that does not match any of the platforms it lives on - even simple text boxes feel 'wrong' - and they feel wrong on every platform.
Sadly, 1Password was pretty much the last password manager vendor actually doing native apps for desktop/laptop platforms, and that's definitely over - as staff posting on these forums don't even seem to see the issues as issues.
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The simple answer there?
Electron apps near universally suck. An app being electron based is a near certain indicator it will be poor to use and suck up system resources.
While 1P8 is a much better electron implementation than most, you’re still replacing a first class native app with one that doesn’t fit macOS’s UI design.
That’s why there’s such a backlash. If you’d never had a really good native app at all, people would care a lot less.
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@Lars What other considerations are you referring to that trump the end user experience? This thread is talking about a downgrade of the user experience. Please keep in mind that your end users don't care if this change saves you a few cents. What other considerations should we be so focused on, please enlighten us.
A bad user experience is hard to overcome when you're dealing with a commodity product.
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@stanfield - what other considerations should you be focused on? None, of course; each person's preferences regarding what is most important in an application will be different. That's why there are plenty of choices out there. We encourage everyone to find the solution that fits their desires best. We hope that will be 1Password, obviously, but we also recognize no one solution will be everyone's preference. :) :+1:
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Yes, good plan. Criteria 1: company not actively working to downgrade their products with a universally despised technology stack. Criteria 2: find company that values the user voice.
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@stanfield I'm a 1Password User on Windows and Android and personally I'm really happy with the Switch to Electron.
There are some things I don't Like but it's still EarlyAccess.Just some quick points where AB has valued User Voice (in my Opinion).
- Psst Sharing
- Dark Mode for Windows
- Better Document Handling
- Better Implementation for Security Questions
- Vault Collections
- More Storage in the 1P Family Plan
- Fastmail Integration / Masked E-Mail
- Faster Rollout vor Features across all Platforms
You are free to choose a Product which suits you better. For me that Product is called 1Password.
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There is wisdom in the old adage …
“You dance with the one who brung you.”
Unfortunately, it appears that AgileBits is determined to “Trade in the loyal wife of 15+ years for a younger woman.” Even when your original Mac users who put you on the map are more than willing to overlook your “side chicks” as long as you continue to “take care of home” as always.
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I'm not sure why, but I read the entire thread this morning. I am not a developer nor a deep technologist, but I am a personal Mac user and have used 1Password personally since almost the very beginning. I am also CIO for a mid-size (c. 1,200 people) company, where windows is our primary user platform (80%) with a more or less equal distribution of 10% for Macs and Linux clients.
We are also half-way through an evaluation project at acquire a new enterprise password manager platform, not only for a number of specific business use-cases but also to provide the tool to each and every user in the company to reinforce user behaviour when it comes to Information Security. We have come across some client and user experiences which (even if the enterprise back-end was strong) I would not inflict upon my worst enemies. 1Password remains the highest-rated for UX (and not just because of the cross-platform - we would always need to give priority to Windows).
I understand the feedback in this thread from a large number of dedicated Mac users, regarding the feel of real integration both from a functional as well as a UX perspective. But I have not personally reacted this way (I didn't even notice the "X" to close preferences was on the top right until I read this thread). Now that people have mentioned performance, I can see that the refresh of an item's icon is visibly not instant (like 0.25 second), but I don't feel it myself.
I choose applications based on their functionality, performance, and user experience. This means I need to have Word, Office, and Excel on my Mac, along with OneDrive and OneNote. I use many apps in the web browser, where my day is bombarded with different design-related user experiences (good and bad). And the reason I love the Mac platform in my personal life is the amazing hardware and its native integration with the OS. Not because I want every app to follow every design rule in the MacOS playbook.
Finally, what prompted me to write, was the other aspects of the 1Password proposition and service. Users here have talked about moving away from 1Password (and I get that, especially if you manage everything in your own environment without a subscription); but when it comes to Information Security, trust and transparency (although it took a while for 1Password as company to become transparent), it is hard to find another service provider. Nothing of this has been mentioned in this thread (although I realise the focus is on being a native Mac App).
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@fletchni - thanks for the perspective, it's much appreciated. And yes, this thread isn't specifically about what you discussed, but your points about being a Mac user yet not really noticing many of the issues brought up in this (and other) thread(s), are well-taken.
I use many apps in the web browser, where my day is bombarded with different design-related user experiences (good and bad). And the reason I love the Mac platform in my personal life is the amazing hardware and its native integration with the OS. Not because I want every app to follow every design rule in the MacOS playbook.
Exactly. Since each person's assessment applies only to their own user requirements and preferences, it's not wrong to make "mac-like design" one's primary or even sole criterion for how one chooses what apps and services to use. It's not even wrong to switch to another solution. But it's worth remembering that 1Password 8 for Mac is still in Early Access. Many of our Mac-based users may not even know it exists yet because they don't frequent Mac-focused subreddits or tech blogs/forums, etc. They want a product that works for them. Currently, 1Password 7 is that product because it is still our production version.
Will 1Password 8 for Mac be a change? Sure, in some ways, -- and for some users more than others, depending on how they currently use 1Password. But when we introduced 1Password 7 for Mac as the successor to version 6, it was a significant change to many user's workflow, too. We added new features, refined others, and moved some things around (much of it in response to user feedback, in fact! ;) ). And some people right here on this forum didn't like the changes, enough to leave impassioned feedback or even talk of downgrading to version 6. Same thing when we switched from 1Password 5 for Mac to 6, and so on, back into even earlier versions. Each time, we listened to feedback, incorporated some of it into later revisions, and kept working to make 1Password the best password manager available. We'll do the same this time as well, keeping in mind that the result won't be everyone's choice.
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I just wanted to circle back. I was (and still am to a lesser extent) very opposed to the choice of Electron, particularly for the macOS App.
macOS client thoughts
I will say that my early observations that the new App was significantly faster than the old one (v7) remains true - it does absolutely run rings around it. I am still very unhappy about the increased system/resource usage and believe that's fundamentally tied to your choice of Electron.The macOS App is still jarring in terms of design and the way it feels / operates compared with how the old one did, and it doesn't look pretty against other great macOS Apps out there, which is a shame because that used to be a point of pride for 1Password.
Browser extension thoughts
I understand the decision behind going with fully featured web extensions, but again I feel like this is a choice directed at saving development resources and time/money rather than focusing purely on the end user. The new extensions work fine, but again are huge resource hogs in comparison with the older desktop client dependent versions of them.I really wish you would go back to the old status quo - design a desktop dependent extension that is lighter weight - at the moment you're basically forcing two resource hogs on people (or will be when they get released as 'final') - the increased resource usage of the desktop application and the increased usage of the browsers extensions. With the use of two browsers not being uncommon this resource usage can add up.
Windows client thoughts
The Windows client is much more fitting and a clear improvement on the old version, it is just a pity it had to come to the detriment of the macOS client.Closing
I did look around, and sadly I cannot find anything that offers the same feature set and simplicity that 1Password offers. I really like being able to store passwords, software licenses, driver licenses, health insurance and the like. The user friendly nature of the editing interface is also very good.I tried the inbuilt iOS/macOS passwords feature - and to be fair it's autofill performance on sites and apps that support it is far and away superior to 1Password on Apple platforms - but i suppose that's the advantage of designing for your own platforms. Apple's browser extension for Windows just sucks - it is so slow it is almost unusable in my view. If it wasn't i'd strongly consider moving software licenses and driver licenses etc into OneDrive personal vault and using Apple for my password syncing.
I think this is a warning to 1Password in a way though, Apple is building more and more of these features into its platforms and steadily iterating on them, making them more robust and more user friendly. If they touch up a few things and add more convenient vaults for things like software licenses and the like then i can see a lot of people who are primarily Apple users moving away from 1Password.
1Password isn't expensive for what it is and I do believe some of the new features (password sharing for example) are much better than having to rely on AirDrop / SMS / Email but again other things like 'masked email' are just a plain rip off / appropriation of something Apple has already done (which for most Apple centric people is significantly cheaper than using FastMail).
I won't be leaving yet but there needs to be some serious thought given to the macOS client - the way you've implemented Electron is fast, but its a huge resource hog (particularly when coupled with the browser extension resource needs) and it is a clear regression for users that use these platforms. I understand the motive of reducing development time, and cost but on the flip side - we pay you a subscription, if you were to say prices need to increase by a few dollars a year, but we'll commit to using completely platform native technologies for the building of Apps I think that is a selling point you could use and one that many people would gladly reward you for.
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@gussic - thanks for the thoughtful write-up. I don't have much to add, except to note that our own Masked Email was in development well before Apple released their own implementation. I don't have any inside line to Apple's development timelines for features like this, but it seems as if these solutions were developed in parallel. That's fine; others have already followed suit, and I suspect the field will become more crowded still, as these things tend to do. But to be clear, we didn't simply see Apple's results and attempt to replicate them. :)
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@Lars Thanks for the response - that is a completely fair comment re masked email, apologies.
I appreciate it is probably difficult to implement but wow it is amazing it hasn't been done in a clever way prior to you and Apple implementing it.
Have you got any plans/thoughts to expand it to other providers and not just FastMail? I'm not sure if it is technically feasible but a plugin for Office/Microsoft 365 would be absolutely incredible.
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After reading about half of this thread, I've got to chime in here. I'm a digital product designer by profession and I've got to say that I absolutely LOVE the updates to 1Password 8 despite what most of the people are saying here!
Sure, it's not a "native" app, but I honestly believe Apple puts together the HIG for teams building product that honestly don't know what they're doing so that sub-par apps so they're up to a certain usability standard. I applaud teams that don't do what everyone else is doing because they want to create their OWN product rather than simply renaming labels and selecting icons within a very specific framework.
Look at some of the top players in tech who very much create their own design language and constantly, and intentionally, break Apple HIG: Tinder, Cash app, Airbnb, Slack, Coinbase, Doordash, Facebook, Medium, Robinhood, just to name a few. I consider 1Password in the league of these companies.
The changes yall have made we extremely welcome. You've cleaned up the over all experience and applied a visual language that respects basic design principles and elevates the experience beyond the standard.
Just because it doesn't "rubber band" or the preference center has its own look and feel does NOT mean it's bad. It means that the 1Password team has their own views on how a great product should look and operate separate from Apples. Plus, for those complaining about things missing or performance is less than ideal, it's a BETA!
For me 1P8 is a much more enjoyable experience and I disagree with most of what has been said in this thread. Keep it up 1Password team. I can't wait to try out the assumed iOS redesign (let me know if you want private beta testers) ;)
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If you are reading this...Bosses at 1password.....
This is such a bad user experience. Why ? I have been a paid use for over a decade.....Why upset your customers like this...What is the matter with you!
If this becomes the main version then I will have to leave because it isn't very usable. Electron is a non native platform. Rust ??? baffling why rust.
Another vote for cancelling my family subscription.
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@cantgetagoodsn - thanks for the observations and the kind words; I've passed them along. And FWIW, I agree -- Apple has always excelled at design, but following the HIG to the letter isn't something even Apple themselves do (we've mentioned the Home app already at least once in this thread).
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I just wanted to share my feedback on 1Password 8.
Right now it uses 370 MB of RAM on my MBP (M1 Max), and, idle, it uses 6.3% of CPU...
For comparison, 1Password 7 takes 84 MB of RAM and uses, idle, 0.1% of CPU
Is this expected? Honestly I don't feel comfortable running a software that provides such "simple" functionalities but takes so much resources. If 1Password 7 is going to be deprecated I'll probably switch to the 1Password X in order to save some resources.
The problem with Electron is that 1 Electron app runs fine, two Electron apps run fine, but right now I'm running: VS Code, Slack, Linear, and 1Password 8. With an average of 300MB per app, I need 1.2GB of RAM just to run these 4 apps. Of course, that's actually way more, since VS Code takes almost 1 GB alone, Slack is at 400MB, and Linear, luckily, is "just" at 220MB...
I'm wondering if you plan to release a public SDK for the Rust backend so that third parties can write their own native UIs on top of it?
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@FezVrasta : What is 1Password X?
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